AP controls Dark Confidant and Oreskos Sun which was tapped by Crippling Chill during the last turn. During his untap step, he untaps Oreskos Sun and gains 2 lifes. He then misses the Dark Confidant's trigger. He draws for his turn, plays a swamp and then calls a judge when he realises he untapped Oreskos Sun and missed the trigger.

If untapping Oreskos Sun is a GRV and you decide to backup to the untap step. Then, how do you handle the missed trigger? Does AP gets a second chance to resolve the ability because of the backup or do you still rule it as a missed trigger and ask NAP if he wants to put the ability on the stack?

Edited Nicolas Mihajlovic-Gendron (Feb. 12, 2015 10:02:22 AM)

Typically speaking, when considering a backup the trigger and the potential
for them to get a second shot at it are both things that you want to
evaluate when making your decision to back up.

When you back up to a point in the game and then let the players play on
you should expect them to play the game from there the way it naturally
would occur. In the case of backing up to the untap step the player will
proceed through their upkeep and the confidant will trigger. They may or
may not forget/miss the trigger at that point and that isn't our problem unless the opponent wants to call attention to the trigger.

In the end if you are not comfortable backing up through the upkeep and
giving them the second go around on the trigger then the answer becomes
leave as-is and move on. I however have no problem just backing up to the
untap and going from there, don't say anything about the trigger, just let
them play the game the way they will (as long as it is legal).

Edited Patrick Cool (Feb. 12, 2015 10:09:02 AM)

Thanks for you quick answer Patrick.

I would not be happy with a backup here. If the player remembers but doesn't say anything about the trigger, he can say something about it if a land is placed on top, but keep silent if a Griselbrand is put on top. Since the OP indicates the trigger is now remembered, I would not backup, as the game would progress differently then.

It is better to leave a broken game state broken, than to replace it with another broken game state. Only backup if you actually mend the game state.

I understand your concern Jasper. Would your answer be the same if the missed trigger would come from Phyrexian Arena instead of Dark Confidant?

Jasper, if the player intentionally misses his trigger because he doesn't
want to take a pile of damage cause there is a griselbrand on top then we
are squarely in the cheating court. The only thing that should be changing
about how the game progresses is that the trigger that should have resolved
resolves (albeit with possibly a different card). You mention that we
should be backing up only if the game can be mended, I would ask which of
these two is closer to the way the game state should have looked.

1) AP has an untapped Oreskos Sun-guide and has not resolved the trigger he
was supposed to

2) AP has a tapped Sun-guide and has resolved the confidant trigger
correctly revealing the random card we have put back on top.

I would say that 99% of the time the answer is point (2).

Unless you think the individual is cheating (whole different conversation),
then none of the actions taken have choices imbedded in them and *should*
proceed on a set path. If I can have 1 slightly warped thing versus 1
broken thing and 1 thing that didn't even happen, I will take the 1
slightly warped thing.

I am assuming no cheating, and therefore expect the Dark Confidant trigger missed by accident. However, it's now remembered, so can't be forgotten if we rewind. Giving a player a card extra is a pretty big impact on the game in itself, so I won't backup here.

Life total changes / tapped / untapped status of creatures / cards drawn are all changes to the game with, depending on the rest of the game state, higher or lower impact. Discussing what is important and what not depends so much on the rest of the game state it's probably moot. I choose the cautious route, and won't backup in this case.

Note that the decision to back up / not to backup by the headjudge can take into account the board state / cards in hands / life totals etc. It is a judgement call. My opinion differs from yours, that does not mean one of us is always correct, and the other is always wrong.

I'd also note that we will likely be changing the game state significantly by putting a card from the hand on top of the library. The CMC and potential damage from a card off the top of the library is very different than the potential damage of a hand. Hands are far less likely to have lands than libraries, as a general rule. You're likely to cause a very different game state with both a remembered trigger and then a card from the hand being hit with that trigger. I'm not comfortable backing this up.

Edited Marc DeArmond (Feb. 12, 2015 11:43:45 AM)

Yeah, my immediate thought was also “noooo way am I gonna back that up” - we arrive at a very different decision point by the time we get back to precombat main phase if we back up first, thanks to that Dark Confidant. NAP had a chance to spot the Crippling Chill error also so they're at least a little bit culpable in the fact that they don't get to “benefit” from their spell as intended (which is not to say I'm being punitive - just taking into consideration that the “damage” to the game now is, in my mind, far less than it would be if we fixed it and gave AP an extra card/nuked their life total because of the random card on top).

Just another good example why we have to consider ALL the actions that were taken (or not taken!) when it comes to evaluating a backup.

Edited Rebecca Lawrence (Feb. 12, 2015 01:20:44 PM)

The change in what might be revealed to Dark Confidant is something which we should consider in the backup, however, there's precedent that we should not consider ‘he might remember his trigger this time’ in whether to back up. The previous example was (in the old trigger rules) a player not announcing a craterhoof behemoth trigger, then it being discovered that he didn't have GGG available. We rewind and don't worry that he won't forget the second time. Opponents have no right or entitlement to missed triggers.

Agree with all the above points.

I'd like to add that in a backup we are putting a random card from hand on top of the library. This card may not be the one that “would have been revealed” from the Bob trigger if remembered. We can't force him/her to “not remember” the trigger again. This means that a card that never was eligible to be revealed (maybe was in hand from start of game) is now known information to the opponent. Just more “ew” to put onto the no backup pile.

No Backup.