Both players have sat for their match but they did not yet even present decks to each other, therefore the match has begun, but the game has not yet begun.

A player then proceeds to look at notes brought from home where he has strategic information about his opponent. Is this Outside Assitance?

The IPG is unclear:

Definition
A player, spectator, or other tournament participant does any of the following:
• Seeks play advice or hidden information about his or her match from others once he or she has sat for his or her match.
• Gives play advice or reveals hidden information to players who have sat for their match.
• During a game, refers to notes (other than Oracle™ pages) made before the official beginning of the current match.

It was not during a game. However:

Notes made outside the current match may only be referenced between games, and must have been in the player’s possession since the beginning of the match.

I think the spirit of the second quote is along the lines of “Notes made outside the match MUST NOT be referenced WHILE a game is in progress,” and does not forbid looking at notes before the first game (even if it is not between games).

Is that the correct interpretation?

I dont think your interpretation is correct.

I think you are reading too much into the “between games” and stretching it to span game 3 of last round to game 1 of this round, when it really doesnt. Between matches you can read whatever, talk to whomever, go download a new article or maybe even see if you can find your next rounds opponents decklist. We allow it because we cant prevent it. “Between Games” is whats between games 1 and 2, 2 and 3, etc.

Once you have sat for match, you have sat for your match. Thats where the line is because, there has to be a line somewhere, and that a pretty visible indication that you are ready for your match. The MTR states “At the beginning of each Match, each players note sheet must be empty…”

I feel players should be able to reference their notes before the start of
game one in a match. I feel the “no notes” provision is primarily intended
to apply to notes being taken into games, not being taken to the table. As
for the MTR quote, I feel that is a bit of a red herring here. The player's
note sheet (that he is bringing into the game) *is* still empty. If he
whipped out his outside notes sheet and started copying it onto his lifepad
for use in Game 1, then I would have a problem, but this is something else
entirely.

There is actually a version of this scenario that I have encountered
before. A player sits for a match in a limited tournament, starts shuffling
and notices that he has 41 cards. He knows he left a sideboard card in, but
isn't sure which one. So he asks to see his decklist to check. Even though
that list is outside notes, I'm not going to deny that request.

I also can't think of any instance where someone sitting for a match then
consulting notes before presenting would cause any more damage to
tournament integrity than had he done so right before he sat. There isn't
any additional information gained, so I don't see the reason to disallow it
(so long as he still presents in a timely manner).

Nick Short
L2, Chicago, IL, USA

I agree. That language dates back from when you couldn't look at notes at any point during a match, and sitting was a reasonable definition. We should look into revising that.

Thanks!
Toby

I am still confused.

So can I look at homemade notes after sitting but prior to start of game
one or not?

The idea was that you could only look at the notes when you would be sideboarding, so not before Game 1. We could honestly go either way on this though, and I suspect “not during a game” is probably clearer.

Originally posted by Petr Hudecek:

Based on Toby's response, which I would argue is about as official as any ruling not actually encoded in our texts, the answer is “Yes, you may reference notes after seating for your match and before the first game of that match.” To understand it in another way, if the notes are okay between matches, they are also still okay after seating and before game one begins. You will only need to be concerned for Tardiness problems if the reading of notes becomes a problem with time.

How would this interact with looking at your own deck list to confirm that
you de-sideboarded correctly after the previous match? We can even assume
that the player has notes on his personal deck list to help him sideboard.
We certainly don't want to stop players from avoiding a game loss.

I think the potential advantage from pre-match post-sitting notes is really
small, since you could just linger another 30 seconds at the pairings board
(or even behind your chair) to review notes if reading them at the table
were disallowed.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

you could just linger another 30 seconds at the pairings board
(or even behind your chair) to review notes if reading them at the table
were disallowed.

And I'd much rather players get to, and sit in, their chairs as quickly as possible.

I concur with Toby's conclusion re: what policy *should* say. Note that, at this moment, it isn't as clear as it could be. While I'd hope that we (those reading this thread) would reach the conclusion “that's not worthy of a penalty”, it certainly seems possible that some judges will apply a different (and much stricter) interpretation. I know I'll be careful about checking my sideboard list before I leave a match, instead of when I arrive at the next one…

d:^D

I was the judge handing out 2 matchlosses in this scenario.

I would really like it to be revised (in fact I was about to post the scenario)

What would also be helpful is a written definition of the START of a Match.

It does not state in the MTR, IPG or Comp Rules.

So, having actually sat down to look at revising this, it looks correct to me.

The prohibition on notes applies “during a game”. What's forbidden once the player sits for the match is getting strategic or hidden (contents of hand, etc) information from a spectator. That makes sense - we don't want a spectator announcing, for example, what a player is sideboarding in between games, but we're fine with you looking at some notes that speculate on what a player is sideboarding. We're not yet in a game, so by definition we're between games, and everything seems OK.

There is no formal definition for start of a match. That's why the line is “sat for a match”.

Since by definition (sic), “between” means “at a point or in a region
intermediate to two other points in space, times, degrees, etc.”, and not
“outside of other points in space, etc.” as you propose, can the phrasing
not be revised to say “outside of games” to avoid the legitimate confusion
raised in this thread?


2013/1/21 Toby Elliott <forum-2455@apps.magicjudges.org>