Originally posted by Mark Brown:

AP controls their turn. It's always up to NAP to interrupt any shortcuts to do what they want when they want. The burden should always be on NAP to interrupt shortcuts if they want to do something before the end point of the shortcut.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the burden was on AP to be clear as their intentions specifically because they control the pace of their turn.

Example - read quickly:
AP: “Goblin Guide, Combat”
NAP: “OK”
AP: “Attack with Goblin Guide”
NAP: “Wait before attacks”
AP: “No, you said OK after I said combat”
NAP: “No, I said OK to you casting Goblin Guide”
A&N: “JUDGE!”

In other words, AP controls the flow of the game and so long as NAP doesn't specifically acknowledge a pass in priority they get to pick where we are in the game.

Edited Edward Bell (May 21, 2015 09:53:34 PM)

Originally posted by Edward Bell:

Mark Brown
AP controls their turn. It's always up to NAP to interrupt any shortcuts to do what they want when they want. The burden should always be on NAP to interrupt shortcuts if they want to do something before the end point of the shortcut.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the burden was on AP to be clear as their intentions specifically because they control the pace of their turn.

I think you are viewing this as an “either/or”, which is not true. AP does control the pace of his turn, and has some responsibility to communicate his intentions. NAP, however, must also make clear his intentions and especially in terms of interrupting before letting the game progress too far.

This is not a “regimented” process, but simply a recognition of how people play most games, Magic or not.

Example - read quickly:
AP: “Goblin Guide, Combat”
NAP: “OK”
AP: “Attack with Goblin Guide”
NAP: “Wait before attacks”
AP: “No, you said OK after I said combat”
NAP: “No, I said OK to you casting Goblin Guide”
A&N: “JUDGE!”

In other words, AP controls the flow of the game and so long as NAP doesn't specifically acknowledge a pass in priority they get to pick where we are in the game.

The problem is that “Okay” and similar acknowledges do have different meanings and uses. Sometimes it is just an acknowledgement of the player's action, such as casting a spell, other times it is also an acknowledgement that the action can be completed, such as the spell resolving. This can often be a regional thing.

The use of “Okay” has been discussed before in different contexts, but nearly universally it has been regarding as some very poor communication on the part of the player. Because it is very unclear whether priority was passed or not. (Personally, I lean “Yes” because it is so easy for NAP to “Gotcha” AP even without intending it, causing AP to announce an action and give NAP information about an action.)

It's generally the opposite, in my experience; AP can't move to another phase without NAP passing priority. Most of our default shortcuts are built on this principle - AP can elect to move to point X in a turn, but NAP has to agree to it, so we consider NAP to “control” where in the turn things happen.

It behooves both players to be specific about when they are acting, or else we fall back to the default assumptions.

If shortcuts depend upon NAP passing priority explicitly they wouldn't be shortcuts.

Shortcuts are there to allow a more natural flow of the game, yes this causes issues because players get confused and make invalid assumptions based on their own desires or their own misunderstandings but in general shortcuts are there to make the game move along rather than having to pause after every action to check if it's ok to move on.

Tournament Defined Shortcuts are there to make things clear and to give players and judges a defined framework to determine where the game is at when things have become confused.

Regarding who control's AP's turn, I think there is a misunderstanding. Yes AP cannot progress their turn without NAP passing priority, and AP can propose a shortcut to a position in their turn and NAP can interrupt that and do something at an earlier point, but the fact is NAP cannot control where AP gets to do something. If after drawing a card with no other communication AP casts a spell NAP cannot say that AP is in their post combat main phase and have lost their chance to attack, it's not their turn to control. My meaning for AP controlling their turn is that they define when to move between phases, NAP just has to agree or do something else. Shortcuts make this easier because NAP just has to agree to the end point, not agree at every bit in between

My mind is being blown, I have NEVER heard of “combat” meaning “attackers.” I'm not being facetious, I have never heard this in fact when people say combat, I have told them that there is a difference between combat and attackers.

Originally posted by William Barlen:

My mind is being blown, I have NEVER heard of “combat” meaning “attackers.” I'm not being facetious, I have never heard this in fact when people say combat, I have told them that there is a difference between combat and attackers.

It is in the Magic Tournament Rules, under Player Communication. One of the predefined shorcuts is:

MTR 4.2 Tournament Shortcuts
A statement such as “I'm ready for combat” or “Declare attackers?” offers to keep passing priority
until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting
then unless they specify otherwise.

If the opponent does nothing it will mean that both players have passed priority in sequence in the beginning of combat step and the game advances to the next step: the declare attackers step. And the firts thing that happens in that step is that the active player declares attackers.