I was playing in a tiny leaders tournament and in the final round my opponent suggested that we play it out and no matter the result the winner gets the prize if any and we report the result as if he won. I called a judge because in my opinion it qualifies as a Serious problem, or Bribery (Collusion?) as per IPG. I also asked to DQ my oppponnet. The judge ruled that this was rather an offer to split prizes and any way even JAR was not entirely applicable since it was a casual tournament (sanctioned as casual, not regular). It has to be pointed out that I had 4 points at that time and the opponent had 6 points and I am not sure if I was eligigble for any prizes at all should I win. Anyway 7 points prize would be definitely smaller than 9 points prize.

IMO any offer to alter the actual results of the match in exchange for an incentive is illegal and it falls in line with how I see the philosophy. The result of the match should be determined through play, therefore dice throwing and the like are also a severely punished infraction. The only exception to this are when a player doesn't want to play any longer (they concede) and an ID.

The thing is I never realized JAR (or even MTR) are not applicable at events sanctioned as casual, so basically anything goes.

So my questions are:
1) What is the best way to approach Serious problems at casual sanctioned formats?
2) What would you do if it was a tournament run at Regular REL?

Edited Arman Gabbasov (June 23, 2015 12:25:58 PM)

Just to make sure I understand it - Your opponent was asking for a concession (“we report the result as if he won”), and simultaneously suggesting a sort of prize split ("play it out the winner gets the prize"); is that what happened?

The judge is correct that the JAR is not applicable. Relevant section from this article by Kim Warren:

Casual Magic is not Regular REL

The Magic Tournament Rules (MTR)are still applied intact at Regular REL. What this means is that Regular REL is not synonymous with ‘anything goes’. Occasionally, TOs will advertise an event to be run at Regular REL which technically cannot be, because it violates some aspect of the MTR. Some common examples of this that I have encountered include Commander or Duel Commander tournaments, Chaos or Bag drafts (where players do not get the same product mix at the start, and where occasionally you will find silver-bordered cards) and ‘Food Bank’ charity tournaments which allow players to donate cards in order to ‘cheat’ during games. These events can only be run as Casual Magic, the practical impact of what is visible in the Planeswalker Points awarded – you receive one single Lifetime Planeswalker Point for participating in a sanctioned Casual event, rather than receiving Seasonal points for wins with multipliers based on event type and attendance.

I've read through your post a few times and here is the way I'm understanding what happened is much like Mani suggested. Your opponent is suggesting that you play out the match to determine a winner. However, you both agree to give the result as though your opponent won and the winner of the match still gets the prizes. I've been trying to think of a situation where your opponent benefits from this, but I can't come up with one as he doesn't get additional Planeswalker Points or added prizes for himself.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but really what it sounds like is the opponent was being nice and trying to maximize prizes for your match. My interpretation of events is that your opponents intent wasn't asking for a concession in exchange for prizes, merely saying “You can get more prizes if we put this in as a win for me. Why don't we play it out and then if you win, you get more prizes than you would have otherwise.” While this does seem to fit the bill for bribery, I don't see a problem with it in a casual event.

This is a really gray area situation at regular REL however. My gut tells me it probably should result in a DQ. You were clearly offered incentive for a match result. I could be overly optimistic here, but I still feel like the opponent had good intentions. But at regular REL, this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed.

As far as question #1 goes, I have no experience running casual events. I'll let someone with more expertise answer that.

Casual events are actually run at the TO's discretion. (Outdated link)

Nonetheless, what is happening here is (imho) obviously collusion. Even though no harm is done to either player in the current match, the result of this match has an influence on other player's matches (and possible final standings).

Offering a prize split in exchange for a match result is something that warrants a DQ at Regular REL and (at least!) a talk in a Casual event (again, depending on the TO's point of view).

Edited Jonas Drieghe (June 23, 2015 03:25:12 PM)

Originally posted by Dustin Wilke:

I've been trying to think of a situation where your opponent benefits from this, but I can't come up with one as he doesn't get additional Planeswalker Points or added prizes for himself.

The TO could have their own league system that actually tracks standings/wins/etc. (Or, maybe they simply don't recognize the implications of this being a casual event - i.e. that they won't get any more PWP for winning that match.)

Agree with everything that has been said, but there is this part that sounds iffy to me:

Originally posted by Arman Gabbasov:

I also asked to DQ my oppponnet.

I don't think you should ask for a given penalty, especially before the Judge gives his ruling. If you disagree with his ruling, you can appeal or discuss it with him, but your description does not suggest that.

Well, you understood the situation correctly. I am highly positive that there are no leagues involved, so the guy was just being nice.
I just overreacted as situations like this are really common in my area (where players agree to concede in exchange for a booster or a subway sandwich even ) and I was personally involved in a situation at another store where I was asked to concede for a booster by a guy with the judge present. She didn't do anything about it and I couldn't convince her because she was not very comfortable with DQing a player.

It's not like I asked to disqualify him rather I explained what happened and said that I thought it was sort of a Bribery/Collusion thing and I believed my opponent should be disqualified.

I guess I should apologize to him now, he's actually a fine guy and probably didn't mean any harm.

Thank you all for your answers but the question remains does the fact that casual tournaments aren't covered by JAR mean that anything goes there? Common sense tells me that cheating at least can be tolerated under no circumstances.

My approach would be to ask the TO/judge to clarify if he wants to follow the JAR guidelines before the tournament. I think there is no need to separate Casual from Regular fo REL purposes.

Originally posted by Arman Gabbasov:

casual tournaments aren't covered by JAR mean that anything goes there?

Yep - it's largely up to the organizer and/or store owner (often the same person) to run these as they see fit.

Note: as Andy showed us earlier, *sanctioned* Casual Events must use real Magic cards.

When we encounter questionable behavior at such events, we should probably let the TO/store owner know why we are unhappy. Maybe they'll see the need to keep most customers happy, and stop undesirable behavior. And, to me, Bribery is undesirable, even in my basement game room.

d:^D

Announcing that events will be run at a REL that is higher than the
real level is fine and a great easy way to communicate to experienced
players what the staff's expectations of players are.

When big prizes are on the line letting them know it will be at
Compeditive REL is a great way to remind them you'll be keeping the
integrity of the tournament as priority #1 and that serious issues and
mistakes will be treated seriously. Saying it is at Regular REL is a
great way to let players know they can relax and keep it fun, but it
still reminds them that there are rules and expectations.

Because the tournament is actually Sanctioned Casual just means that
the penalties aren't going to be tracked and reported by WER. But when
a player cheats still DQ them and discuss with the TO about possibly
banning them from the store. If it was a more serious DQ then even
talk to neighbouring stores, they may be interested in which sharks
have a taste for blood in the area.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Scott Marshall
<forum-19163-4fdd@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> Arman Gabbasov
> casual tournaments aren't covered by JAR mean that anything goes there?
>
> Yep - it's largely up to the organizer and/or store owner (often the same
> person) to run these as they see fit.
>
> Note: as Andy showed us earlier, *sanctioned* Casual Events must use real
> Magic cards.
>
> When we encounter questionable behavior at such events, we should probably
> let the TO/store owner know why we are unhappy. Maybe they'll see the need
> to keep most customers happy, and stop undesirable behavior. And, to me,
> Bribery is undesirable, even in my basement game room.
>
> d:^D
>
–
Gareth Pye
Level 2 MTG Judge, Melbourne, Australia
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”

Edited Gareth Pye (June 23, 2015 08:28:08 PM)

Originally posted by Arman Gabbasov:

I just overreacted as situations like this are really common in my area (where players agree to concede in exchange for a booster or a subway sandwich even ) and I was personally involved in a situation at another store where I was asked to concede for a booster by a guy with the judge present. She didn't do anything about it and I couldn't convince her because she was not very comfortable with DQing a player.

Even though casual level events are not subject to the guidelines set out in the JAR, you seem to be indicating that bribery is fairly common even at Regular REL events in this section of your post. Does this occur at Competitive REL events as well?

While demanding a DQ wouldn't be appropriate, if you are at a Regular REL event and see or hear something that you're not comfortable with, don't be afraid to at least mention it to the head judge or TO. If bribery is endorsed or approved by either party, there appropriate channels for you to voice your concerns. (I'm actually not sure, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I can step in)

Edited Rich Marin (June 24, 2015 09:17:34 PM)

Originally posted by Rich Marin:

Even though casual level events are not subject to the guidelines set out in the JAR, you seem to be indicating that bribery is fairly common even at Regular REL events in this section of your post. Does this occur at Competitive REL events as well?

I have overheard such offers myself a couple of times and was openly offered to concede for a booster once. My concern is not only that it happens and players don't see it as a problem, but that store employees are sometimes reluctant to punish such behaviour. I can understand them because for me issuing a match loss is an unpleasant task and I have never DQed anyone. Still this is a problem and without addressing it we cannot solve it.

I have never heard of or come across such behaviour at events I judge. I am not an employee of any store in my area so I only judge competitive tournaments. Whenever I saw it at Regular or Casual events I made sure to tell the players such behaviour is unacceptable, but that is as much as I can do.

We have had similar issues with bribery in some of our communities. It is actually getting better. We have had some DQ cases, which were discussed by players in online forums and we have also written some online articles on the topic of Bribery.

Maybe you could also try to educate your players that way.

It sounds as though the players are less of a problem than the judges and TO's involved.

When it comes to clean Magic, players expect to get away with what they've been allowed to get away with. It might be time to go the hard road of reporting inappropriate conduct.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/conduct/2014/12/01/announcing-magic-judge-feedback-form/

This to me sounds like a serious issue within the community that needs to be nipped in bud.

Regardless of the sanctioning level of the event bribery/collusion is never something that we should be allowing to go on.

While it may be a harsh lesson for the players involved it is one that they (the community in general here) needs to learn and understand. Learning the lesson by getting themselves removed from an FNM/Casual event is preferred to having this happen at a GP or PT event and again while the task of DQ'ing a player is one i wouldn't wish on any player or judge it is sometimes a necessity to prevent the situation from escalating and becoming a more serious problem at later time.

Explain the situation to the TO's/Store Owners and try to get them to understand why this is bad for them to have in their stores. They should have your back on it which can make situation slightly easier on you.

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Note: as Andy showed us earlier, *sanctioned* Casual Events must use real Magic cards.
d:^D

Unsanctioned events are still good for proxies to be used though, yeah? My LGS is toying with the idea of allowing proxied decks for Modern tournaments (try and grow the local interest, allow people to play what they want without the heavy cost investment up front, build decks over time, etc). Basically, all WER would be used for is to generate pairings, but the event wouldn't be reported. That's acceptable to do, right?