Originally posted by cyril ford:

Both players were under the impression that Ponder was being cast. Ponder was also resolved fully before either play caught it. Ruling out any wrongdoing from an investigation, I put ponder from the hand into the graveyard, pre-ordain back into hand, and continue the game from that point.
I issue a GRV and FTMGS, ask the players to be more careful, and continue on.

Cyril, what part of the IPG would you use to defend GRV with partial fix here?

I agree with the argument that we cannot backup and we should act as if Preordain was cast, and make our ruling on the incorrect resolution of Preordain.

DEC's definition:
“Puts one or more cards into his or her hand illegally”. Yup, that fits. I'm interested in the Additional Remedy section: “If the player confirmed the card draw with the opponent before drawing, a backup may be considered or the game state left as-is.” Can this apply here? I think I would be comfortable leaving the game state as-is, rather than having A reveal his hand and discard a card of N's choice.

Originally posted by Huw Morris:

“Puts one or more cards into his or her hand illegally”. Yup, that fits.

Does it? Both spells end up with instruction “draw a card”. Drawing wasn't an error per se, thing that happened right before drawing were.

IPG 2.3 Add. Rem.
If the cards were drawn as part of the legal resolution of an illegally played instruction, … a backup may be considered or the game state left as-is.

So I think, we have to decide, of doing “Scry 3” instead of Scry 2 was illegally played instruction (I think it is) and then, if we consider backup. Backing up would end up with random card from our player hand being shuffled away to unknown part of the library. Leaving as-is would end up with player knowing one card to much in his library. I think, backing up would be more disruptive to the game (ie: “pondorian” was cast based on owning that shuffled card in hand) so I would leave it as-is.

Edited Bartłomiej Wieszok (Oct. 20, 2015 05:40:00 AM)

I'm with Bartłomiej - I think this fits DEC pretty cleanly.

We can't be sure that A would have drawn the same card if resolving a Ponder as opposed to Preordain. Scry 2, the player may not have scryed both of them. Thus the card that was drawn was drawn illegally. As per the new definition of DEC, we don't call it GRV if something illegal caused the player to draw the card.

The scry was the error - they told us they'd resolved a ponder not a preordain - so the first error was a mistake on the scry - which fortunately is now considered a DEC anyway.

If the cards were drawn as part of the legal resolution of an illegally played instruction, … a backup may be considered or the game state left as-is.

Comes from DEC not GRV.

I think we're arguing the same point here, Marc!