John calls a judge and asks a rules question, which the judge answers incorrectly. His opponent Abe knows that the answer given was incorrect but doesn't say anything. He proceeds to exploit this incorrect interpretation of the rules to win the game.

After the match, you, as the head judge, find out what happened. What do you do?

You educate the floor judge on the ruling.

If you feel it necessary, you can also talk to the players to explain what
the ruling should've been, explain to John that he has the right to appeal.
Abe has done nothing wrong. He wasn't being very sportive, because he knew
the ruling was wrong and in his favor. But players aren't expected to
overrule judges if they believe the ruling to be wrong.

Now, if Abe was somehow trying to convince the judge to make an incorrect
ruling in his favor, then I'd have a stern talk with him.
Though ultimately, it was the floor judge making the mistake, which isn't
an infraction committed by a player and therefore not penalised.

-R.

2016-01-21 8:03 GMT+01:00 Isaac King <forum-24098-51f5@apps.magicjudges.org>
:

I think there are two pieces of conflicting policy which require players to “call attention to any rules or policy infraction (he or she) notice(s) in (his or her) matches” (MTR 1.10), but not speak up about incorrect rulings and subsequent illegal actions taken afterwards (see links).

I'm curious to here debate on this, but a judge's ruling doesn't make an action legal. However, “the head judge is the final judicial authority…and all tournament participants are expected to follow his or her interpretations” (MTR 1.7) Also see links for Uncle Scott telling you that players don't have to appeal.

If the judge's ruling results in a GPE or TE, I would like to penalize for USC - Major Cheating if you, the head judge, can prove that Abe was intentionally “not pointing out a player's illegal actions, either for his or her own advantage, or in the hope of bringing it up at a more strategically advantageous time” (IPG 2.6, 4.8), but that investigation would be very difficult and the policy is not clearly supported.

Uncle Scott saying that players don't have to appeal rulings:
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/8475/
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/5811/

Edited Seren Mohn (Jan. 21, 2016 07:40:33 AM)

I think it is quite the stretch to say that Abe has done something wrong within the rules here. Abe pointed out the original illegal actions (a judge was called) and was then told that everything is fine (judge made a ruling). Abe is under no obligation to correct the judge, and in fact is under a distinct obligation not to fight with the judge over his/her ruling.

Abe may not have been the most sporting guy, but I really can't see where he violated the rules here.

Another vote for “Abe has done nothing wrong”. If we consider the alternative, what about the cases where the judge is correct, but Abe believes that the judge is incorrect? A judge has correctly been called, and has given his ruling. Unless either player wishes to appeal the ruling, we expect both players to accept that ruling and play on. The players should not ever be under an obligation to appeal a ruling.

Originally posted by Seren Mohn:

can prove that Abe was intentionally “not pointing out a player's illegal actions,

You could argue that those actions weren't illegal, since a judge (Floor Judge if not appealed, Head Judge as the final authority) authorized them. Basic islands can add <R> to your mana pool if the HJ says so ;)

Or you could argue that those actions were illegal, because they are in
violation of the game rules. As the Head Judge, does anyone want to have a
conversation with Abe about what has happened? What might you want to ask
or tell him?

No. As long as Abe has not badgered or pressured the FJ into making an incorrect ruling, I can find no fault with Abe's behaviour. In fact, I prefer players to accept rulings they might not necessarily agree with. In this case, Abe was correct and the FJ was incorrect, next time might be the other way round.

Abe has done nothing wrong here, please stop looking for ways to demonize him or his actions…

d:^D

I agree with everyone else. Abe is fine. When you catch wind of what happened then I'd say it's your responsibility as head judge to talk to all parties involved in a positive light. Specifically to John about the appeals process. This is a weird corner case where players are rewarded for better knowledge of the rules. Had John known or strongly felt that the ruling was incorrect then he would appeal to the head judge.

Really? Abe is allowed to intentionally violate game rules in order to gain an advantage, just because the judge said it was ok?

For the most part, Abe knowing something to be true is really “Abe having a strong suspicion that something is true”. Abe might be wrong, that's why we encourage players to call judge: to help figure it out. It's possible that after the judge call, Abe believes the call was wrong (but actually the call is right). How is that handled?

Imagine that the call is something that affects both players, like whether cohort abilities (like Spawnbinder Mage) can be used when the other ally creature has ‘summoning sickness’. Imagine the judge (correctly) says “yes”. John thinks the call is correct, and starts playing accordingly (and using cohort on his creatures). Abe thinks the call is incorrect. We shouldn't expect Abe to refrain from using this ability.

Or, to put it another way: yes, the L5 really meant what he said: Abe has done nothing wrong.

Edited Aaron Henner (Jan. 24, 2016 03:33:47 AM)

Originally posted by Isaac King:

Really? Abe is allowed to intentionally violate game rules in order to gain an advantage, just because the judge said it was ok?

Look at that this way - Abe knows how legend rule works now. Abes' opponent is new, call a judge and ask about legend rule. Judge provide incorrect answer describing old, pre-M15 rule. However unlikely, there is a small chance, that there was update to CR in past few days that Abe missed. Judges should be up-to-date with those at events. Abe can find that ruling very suspicious, but it is for his advantage. He don't need to appeal and clarify this.
It's one of the cases, where player mistakes are caused just by our owns, and typically we don't punish players for those.

Abe's responsibility begins and ends with calling a judge. He is never required to appeal a ruling even if he's certain it's wrong.

We can have a discussion about morality, but that likely falls outside the bounds of Competitive REL discussion and/or any rules or policy documents. Even if Abe appeals, what if the HJ upholds the ruling? Is Abe expected to concede at that point?

I have been dumbfounded by punted calls by head judges but that has to do more with ALL JUDGES BEING HUMAN than the MTR the IPG or any other people of literature that guides people.
But when a call is made incorrectly, if another judge walks by and happens to see the game being played in this new incorrect manner, and the game is then paused and recorrected I feel like more harm has come.
I think that a judge blowing a call should not excuse a player from his responsibility to maintain game state and adhere to the rules at all times.

I respectfully disagree with the L5 (though it scares me).