Should players be allowed to have cards upside down within the sleeve? I see no reason why not, but some other judges have said they would not allow it.

Assuming that this does not somehow make the card identifiable (and I can't think of a reason why it should) from the backside, then I see no problem at all with this. Obviously sleeves that are not 100% opaque could be a problem with this, assuming that they've got some cards upside-down and others right side up.

The MTR also provides guidance:

Originally posted by MTR 3.10 Sleeves:

Players may use plastic card sleeves or other protective devices on cards. If a player chooses to use card sleeves, all sleeves must be identical and all cards in his or her deck must be placed in the sleeves in an identical manner. If the sleeves feature holograms or other similar markings, cards must be inserted into the sleeves so these markings appear only on the faces of the cards.

(Emphasis mine) Imho this sentence does apply here.

Ah, I had forgotten about that. Thank you.

So that answers my question but doesn't explain why. What's the rationale behind that line?

You can place some cards oriented opposite than the rest of your deck so
that you can know when they are on top of the deck using not completely
opaque sleeves. Your opponent will not notice but you will not activate
your fetch because of that or will do it to try to place the card you want
to draw on top.

Probably an skilled magician could also put one of those marked cards on
top while shuffling or prepare it for and induced cut.

With this rule, when someone breaks it and knows he or she is doing
something wrong, we can apply Cheating.

Placing come cards upside down may also be kind of strategic help (like “those cards I have to play only under these circumstances”.

Anyway, just ask them to put the cards the same way

David Larrea of course marked cards won't be allowed. I understand that. I'm asking why there is a specific prohibition on cards being in different orientations inside the sleeve.

Isaac, I believe the prohibition on being in different orientations is because of the concern regarding marked cards. Cards in sleeves with different orientations may be identifiable to the player even if they aren't necessarily identifiable to you.

If you are conducting a deck check and discover some cards are sleeved in a different manner, but you don't believe they are marked cards as presented, just ask them to re-sleeve in the same orientation (you can't point out that line from the MTR if they ask why). Obviously if they are identifiable in the deck that's a marked cards infraction instead.

Its worth noting that having cards sleeved “upside down” isn't actually against the MTR, just that having cards in different orientations is (for example, I sleeve my deck “upside down” but I sleeve all of them the same way, which seems to bother judges who deck check me but isn't against any rules).

Here's a good trick when trying to figure out why a rule exists:

Remove it, then take it to the extreme, and see what happens.

If cards are oriented differently in the sleeves some cards will be marked. Some players will *think* things are marked and we will spend time investigating marked card infractions when there isn't one. Players will also accidentally mark their cards as a result, so This rule helps reinforce the marked card rules.

Sometimes, rules exist to make things uniform or to answer questions that keep getting asked (is an ID recorded 1-1-1 or 0-0-3. Doesn't matter as long as it's the same)

Finally, what *good* reason would a player have for only wanting a subset of cards upside down. Even asking the question alerts me that something shady might be going on. You can't really make a compelling argument to allow it.

And sometimes you get players that just want to do something because it's unconventional but not disallowed. The “I'm not cheating, show me in the rules where it says I can't do X!” crowd. Well, it's right here. Now resleeve and go back to your match. Kkthxbai



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Finally, what *good* reason would a player have for only wanting a subset of cards upside down.

The player could have borrowed those cards from a friend in order to play the rest of the playset (aka 1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy upside down (his), 3 in correct alignment (borrowed))

The only time I've ever played with a card upside down is with split cards… I prefer the name of the card to be on the right side reading top down.

Sad. I've always wanted to sleeve half my lands upside down in addition to
the current mix of border colours and fullness of art to bother people even
more. I had no clue this was actually in the MTR. =(

2016-02-04 10:12 GMT-05:00 Jason Crone <

Originally posted by Dennis Nolting:

The player could have borrowed those cards from a friend in order to play the rest of the playset (aka 1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy upside down (his), 3 in correct alignment (borrowed))

This is, for the record, a thing I've seen on multiple occasions and not just a corner case.

Originally posted by Eli Meyer:

This is, for the record, a thing I've seen on multiple occasions and not just a corner case.

I'm not convinced the experience of two judges constitutes this not being a corner case.

Like BPrill said, having a policy that acts as a safety net prevents some pretty absurd things from happening.

Originally posted by Jeff S Higgins:

I'm not convinced the experience of two judges constitutes this not being a corner case.

It's certainly more than two judges. I would even say that if several judges from completely different parts of the world have experienced this multiple times, that makes it “not a corner case”.

That being said, I would be okay if the card inside the sleeve was upside down, but all the sleeves are oriented the same way. So if you place your deck on the table, the opening of all sleeves point in the same direction (and of course if the sleeves are completely opaque).