Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Competitive REL » Post: Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Feb. 5, 2016 05:22:52 PM

Chase Culpon
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Northeast

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

I'm being a bit pedantic here, but it's not an infraction to miss a non-detrimental trigger. You have to jump through some major loops to make a scenario where there's advantage to be gained.

You can think missing your own chalice trigger gets you an advantage, but it doesn't actually give you an advantage.

Edited Chase Culpon (Feb. 5, 2016 05:32:52 PM)

Feb. 5, 2016 05:33:25 PM

Nate Hurley
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

USA - Southwest

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Originally posted by Chase Culpon:

it's not an infraction to miss a non-detrimental trigger

That's not correct, Chase. The infraction is a Missed Trigger. The default penalty for a Missed Trigger is “none,” but that doesn't mean it isn't an infraction. For triggers that are usually considered detrimental for the controlling player, the penalty is upgraded to a Warning.

Regarding cheating, the player doesn't have to actually gain an advantage- they “must be attempting to gain an advantage.” We can sit around all day and talk about how there's no actual advantage, but that doesn't change the fact that if a player is trying to gain an advantage, that counts.

Feb. 5, 2016 06:06:22 PM

Chase Culpon
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Northeast

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

I guess I'm confused on what the definition of ‘is’ is–thanks for the correction Nate.

Feb. 5, 2016 06:10:43 PM

Chris Wendelboe
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Under philisophy for missed trigger: “Triggered abilities are common and invisible, so players should not be harshly penalized when forgetting about one. Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one may be Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (unless the ability would have no impact on the game as described above). Even if an opponent is involved in the announcement or resolution of the ability, the controller is still responsible for ensuring the opponents make the appropriate choices and take the appropriate actions. Opponents are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish.”

Feb. 6, 2016 03:55:12 AM

Jeff S Higgins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific Northwest

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Just some food for thought (yes it's from the October 14th version but I don't believe much has changed regarding this philosophy):

http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/Annotated_IPG/Missed_Trigger

“So, while forgetting your trigger is not to be harshly penalized, intentionally missing your trigger is much more serious. Note the subtle usage of the word “may,” in the sentence above. If you suspect a player of cheating, read the definition of Cheating to see if it applies. Another exception to this being Unsporting Conduct – Cheating is if the player in question were not aware that intentionally ignoring one’s own triggered abilities is against the rules.”

Now back to the two cheating lines:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.

This is where you gotta figure out if the player fits this criteria. Investigate and figure out if the player is attempting to gain an advantage, not just gaining an advantage. There's some subtle differences, but they are important ones.

Feb. 6, 2016 09:03:14 AM

Aaron Henner
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific Northwest

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Some food for thought on possibilities of intentionally missing one's own trigger and “is it ALWAYS cheating”

I often let minor things slide when I'm about to lethal my opponent. I do this out of expediency, and not wanting to seem pedantic or rude to my opponent. This includes triggers of mine, or sometimes that an opponent's creature has died in combat, but has no cards in hand and I'm about to swing back for the win. Am I cheating?

The game, and people, are nuanced. You may not be able to think of a honest reason for something, yet one may exist. Even if you're “mostly sure”: ask the player!

Feb. 9, 2016 11:32:00 AM

Mats Törnros
Judge (Uncertified)

Europe - North

Chalice of the Void & "Making your opponent remember it"

Originally posted by Aaron Henner:

I often let minor things slide when I'm about to lethal my opponent. I do this out of expediency, and not wanting to seem pedantic or rude to my opponent. This includes triggers of mine, or sometimes that an opponent's creature has died in combat, but has no cards in hand and I'm about to swing back for the win. Am I cheating?

Since you are not attempting to gain any advantage, you are not cheating. You are absolutely committing a GRV/FtMGS though, so in general this just seems like a bad idea.