Hi,

Yes, I know everybody is already bored with this all HCE scenario.
But I really want to understand policy better, and I cannot make a decision here:
Active Player active some Liliana's first ability: “all players discards a card”. He choose a card, separate from his hand, and keep it facedown next to to the graveyard. Then two thinks happen almost immediately: His opponent discard a card, and AP put choosen card into his hand instead of into graveyard.

After short investigation you discovered, that nothing malicious happen - AP just changed his mind, and want to discard something else. He thought that he is allowed to do it until opponent made his choice.

Now decision time: what's an infraction, what's fix, what's penalty?

“If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.”

That's one of the partial fixes for Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation (GRV); it's also a situation that's very easy to back up. Have NAP put their discard back in their hand, and then each player chooses a card to discard, per the correct procedures (each player chooses a card, sets it aside face down, then all are revealed at the same time).

d:^D

I can see it two ways:
1. the error was that player failed to discard a card. then we get Uncle answer.
2. The error was moving card from one hidden location (face down card next to graveyard) to other hidden location (hand). Which should be seen as a HCE, with appropriate fix.

Why we should rule rather 1. than 2.?

“Location” here refers not to a physical position, but to something the
game understands as a location.

“Face down next to the graveyard” isn't a game location. This sentence sees
that card as still being in the player's hand if it hasn't yet gone to the
graveyard.

Originally posted by Adam Kolipiński:

I can see it two ways:
1. the error was that player failed to discard a card. then we get Uncle answer.
2. The error was moving card from one hidden location (face down card next to graveyard) to other hidden location (hand). Which should be seen as a HCE, with appropriate fix.

Why we should rule rather 1. than 2.?

Because it doesn't match the definition of HCE. Not discarding a card from your hand is a publicly visible and publicly correctable with publicly available information.
HCE is not a blanket that covers

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

“Location” here refers not to a physical position, but to something the
game understands as a location.

“Face down next to the graveyard” isn't a game location. This sentence sees
that card as still being in the player's hand if it hasn't yet gone to the
graveyard.

But if I scry two cards instead of one, these cards are still in my library. But the infraction is HCE. What's difference here?

Bryan Prillaman
Because it doesn't match the definition of HCE. Not discarding a card from your hand is a publicly visible and publicly correctable with publicly available information.
HCE is not a blanket that covers

But the player didn't forget to discard a card. he did it, just after the dust settled discarded card end up back in his hand rather than graveyard.

Originally posted by Adam Kolipiński:

player didn't forget to discard a card. he did it

No. He never completed the action of discarding:

CR 701.7a
To discard a card, move it from its owner’s hand to that player’s graveyard.

Originally posted by Adam Kolipiński:

But if I scry two cards instead of one, these cards are still in my library. But the infraction is HCE. What's difference here?

Example B of HCE makes it very clear what we do, if a player thinks he or she is supposed to Scry 2, when the effect is “Scry 1”.

Bryan Prillaman
HCE is not a blanket that covers

I think I know where Bryan was heading, before he got cut off, and I'll put it my way: Not everything is HCE.

I'll admit that the current language allows more stretching-to-fit than we intended, and that language is already in the process of being cleaned up, for the next iteration of the IPG. Until then, try to apply Common Sense first.

d:^D

Ok, I've got this.
On the “real scenario” I, after consult with 2 L3s, ruled GRV, discard now. That was our “common sense” I was just afraid, if it isn't“reverse engineering”.

Thank you for contributing on this topic and clearing up thinks for me. I'm waiting for the next rules update, then.