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Competitive REL » Post: Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Feb. 25, 2016 05:14:32 PM

Jasper König
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Hello,

I have to simple questions. If this belongs to rules Q&A, please tell me or just move the thread there.

Question A: Can a player be guilty of seeking outside assistance when asking a judge?
- I guess the answer is no since judges just are considered a legal source of information the judges may or may not give depending on the question.

Question B: Can a judge be guilty of giving outside assistance?

I had a situation a little while ago where my opponent asked a judge what would happen if I'd remove/destroy his Minister of Pain in response to the Exploit trigger. The judge just told him exactly what would happen with something along the lines of “You still can sacrifice a creature to exploit, but your opponents creatures won't get shrinked.” and my opponent adjusted his plays accordingly. It pretty much felt like Outside Assistance and I told the judge how I was unhappy, however, I wasn't sure how to deal with this as a player so I just shrugged it of and went on.

So, it definitely felt “not okay” to me, but maybe this is allowed and I'm just overreacting. :) I'd like to hear your opinions on this.

Edited Jasper König (Feb. 25, 2016 05:16:16 PM)

Feb. 25, 2016 05:19:50 PM

Dan Collins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry)), Scorekeeper

USA - Northeast

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

A) No, asking a question of a judge is never illegal. The judge is welcome
to not answer.

B) Sort of. Judges are prohibited from giving strategic advice just as
players and spectators are. However, we don't actually issue the penalty to
the judge, we just tell them not to do it again. If you encounter this as a
player, you can talk to the judge after the match, appeal to the Head
Judge, or submit feedback to your Regional Coordinator or through the Judge
Feedback Form.

Feb. 25, 2016 06:14:48 PM

Joshua Feingold
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

For the scenario in Question B, how do you feel the judge should have answered? What part of his answer do you feel could be considered strategic advice, rather than explanation of the rules for exploit?

Feb. 25, 2016 06:49:21 PM

Jasper König
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

I'm not sure how to answer that question, because maybe there's no other way of answering the question. I generelly find it kind of problematic when players ask really open questions like “what happens when…”. How far do you go with answering those questions? My opponent didn't even ask “Do I still get to shrink his creatures?”, but he (sort of) had the judge solve the game-state for him. I felt like stuff like that (that is: what would/could happen in the future) should be figured out by the players themselves.

Maybe I was overreacting, and maybe this isn't the premiere example of outside assistance given by a judge. :) Maybe a situation like "Judge, how can I kill Wandering Fumarole with a Wild Slash?" would've been better. :)

Thank you for answering my actual questions.

Edited Jasper König (Feb. 25, 2016 06:54:25 PM)

Feb. 25, 2016 06:54:36 PM

Flu Tschi
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

German-speaking countries

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Maybe you could answer it with a simpler question like “Can you ask me something where i only have to say yes or no” ?

something along the lines of this.

Don't know thou if that helps, but if it helps you feel better you will perform better ;)

Feb. 25, 2016 06:56:40 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

While the judge may have provided a more detailed answer than you'd like, he did provide a “rules answer” - i.e., not strategic information, just a fairly complete answer.

What I like to teach judges, when they get an open-ended question, is to reply with “what rules are you unsure of?” or similar - i.e., encourage the player to ask a more specific question.

As for the Fumarole vs. Wild Slash: block with a 4/4; then, when he switches P/T to kill your dude, hit it with Wild Slash; now he can either switch it back and die to the 4/4, or let it die as is. :D

d:^D

Feb. 25, 2016 08:38:11 PM

Justin Miyashiro
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

This question is tagged for Competitive REL, so I assume the event was a Comp one, but it might be worth considering as feedback for the issuing judge that the answers you can give to a question like that at Comp may be different from the answers you would give at Regular. I doubt the answer you've quoted would be a problem at all at Regular REL, and while I agree that it is not a strategic answer at Comp, it is close enough to the line to make some people uncomfortable with it (after all, we wouldn't be talking about it otherwise). The judge in question may never have considered clarifying down to a yes or no, or clarifying what rules question they are being asked. If anything, I think this is the feedback that might be most helpful.

Sent from my iPad

Feb. 25, 2016 09:08:37 PM

Bryan Henning
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Midatlantic

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

The quintessential example of this dilemma for judges is “judge, can I spellskite my opponent's lava spike?” A strict rules answer is “yes”. “Yes, but the ability will then have no effect as Spellskite is an illegal target” is also a correct answer, but also contains strategic advice. However, the first answer will absolutely lead to a second call and a very upset player.

In general judges always have to walk a fine line between providing answers and play advice. We also don't want to be playing “gotcha” over the semantics of a question rather than helping players understand the rules.

That's why (as Scott said) it's important to clarify broad open ended questions. “Is there a specific rule you want to understand?” “what specifically are you trying to do?” And other clarifying questions help players actually ask the question they are trying to ask without providing direct advice and without playing semantics “gotcha”.

It's a tough line to walk, but certainly is important.

Edited Bryan Henning (Feb. 25, 2016 09:10:00 PM)

Feb. 25, 2016 10:22:41 PM

John Carter
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Tournament Organizer

USA - Pacific Northwest

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

To put things plainly:
A judge–in the course of doing his or her judge duties–cannot be guilty of Outside Assistance.

What they can be guilty of is bad form and potentially form so terrible as to hurt the perception of the integrity and competence of judges.

If a judge walks by a match and randomly blurts out, “Golly, block or die, Mr. Davis,” then they're providing Outside Assistance. If Mr. Davis asks a judge a rules question wherein the judge has to explain that the result is lethal, that's fine. The sticky part is not in finding the line between Outside Assistance and bad judge form (unsolicited comments or comments not related to a judge question are OA, dutiful judge comments that go too far are bad form). The sticky part is the line between a “good” judge answer and a “bad” judge answer–even though both might be “correct.”

I find the best way to determine the line between good and bad form is to look for one of three options:
1) Is the answer a rules quote? (Exile is not a destroy effect. While resolving a spell, follow the instructions in the order written.)
2) Is the answer and unambiguous question leading to a Yes / No? (Yes, it is dead. Yes, that can target that.)
3) Is the answer and unambiguous question leading to a specific scenario? (Until the spell with split second resolves, you can't activate or play anything, but that trigger still happens and stacks as normal.)

The key element that goes with this is to answer the question that was asked, not the question that the player meant to ask. If a player asks the classic Spellskite / Lava Spike question (can I target Lava Spike with Spellskite?), there's a unambiguous answer. It's bad form to correct the player's question or fish for a different question. (At Competitive that is; at Regular, educate over enforce, please.) If a player asks an ambiguous version, then you might have to clarify (can I Spellskite that Spike?), but don't fish–just say “please clarify” or “your question is unclear, could you clarify?”

Where judging becomes more art and less science is in how you answer that awkward question. I find that for questions where the player is asking a legitimate question but not what they think they're asking, a strict rules comment followed by me pausing at the match is generally best. ~Can I target Lava Spike with Spellskite? Yes, the spell is a legal target for the Spellskite ability.~ Players that have some clue but are a little lost will often wonder at the rules-y reply and ask a follow-up that actually gets to what they actually want. Players that are lost will just go on and smack into reality soon after. Either way, the pause means I'm right there as things happen and can provide a follow-up answer if a player asks or make sure things resolve correctly if they missed the difference between what they asked and wanted to ask. When they go on with suboptimal play and look to me with confusion, being there allows me to immediately address how the player's query was not what he wanted and talk about Competitive REL and how it's frowned upon for judges to correct an otherwise legal question.

Some judges may feel this is overly harsh. At Regular, you are likely right. At Competitive, you are wrong. Conveniently, our rules already address this. But why does that strict delineation exist at Competitive? Won't that player be upset? Yes, that player will be upset, but matches aren't one player. If you coach the player out of their ignorance, and the opponent is upset because you assisted the player. What might seem “nice” is actually taking away the competitive advantage players expect for better rules knowledge, and it directly hurts another player. Thus, for Regular I advise being nice but for Competitive, keep the advantage. I often find that using cases like this to illustrate for players how expectations are different for players and how judges operate differently at Regular and Competitive goes a long way to smoothing out the upset a confused player may feel. If opponents at Competitive were little angels looking out for some righteous ideal, they have every right to stop and ask the judge a follow up question just as much as the player does. Every once in a while I get an opponent who does, and I happily answer them. More often than not though, I get an opponent who obviously appreciates having a judge who sticks to what was asked without digging around–especially when that judge hangs out for a moment knowing they're about to get called again (showing they knew the question wasn't what the player wanted even if it was what they asked).

The classic example* with sample responses:
Can I target Lava Spike with Spellskite?
Regular REL: I suspect your question isn't asking what you want to know, but at Regular REL, please allow me to clarify. The Spike is a legal target for the ability, but the ability can make the Spellskite a legal target for the Spike, so it won't ~do~ anything.
Competitive REL Good Form: Yes, the spell is a legal target for the Spellskite ability.
Competitive REL Bad Form: Yes, the ability can target the spell. Did you want to know more?
Competitive REL Atrocious, Reputation Damaging Form: Yes, the spell is a legal target for the Spellskite ability, but the ability won't do anything.

* For all you young folks out there, the actual classic example would use Misdirection and either Counterspell or Duress.

Feb. 26, 2016 08:51:39 PM

Eli Meyer
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Northeast

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Originally posted by John Carter:

Competitive REL Good Form: Yes, the spell is a legal target for the Spellskite ability.
I'm really surprised to see you identify this as good form, since this seems like one of the fastest ways to make Spellskite's controller hate judges and hate the game.

Feb. 26, 2016 09:29:09 PM

Ian Pinsker
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Great Lakes

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Originally posted by Eli Meyer:

John Carter
Competitive REL Good Form: Yes, the spell is a legal target for the Spellskite ability.
I'm really surprised to see you identify this as good form, since this seems like one of the fastest ways to make Spellskite's controller hate judges and hate the game.

The player who doesn't control spellskite is in the game as well, though, and also has opinions on judges and the game. We're not only there for the person who raises their hand and calls “Judge!” …even if they don't keep their hand raised.

Feb. 26, 2016 09:54:40 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Originally posted by Eli Meyer:

I'm really surprised to see you identify this as good form, since this seems like one of the fastest ways to make Spellskite's controller hate judges and hate the game.
This is why, at Comp REL, I'm much more likely to respond with “I'm not sure what you're asking; what part of the rules can I help with?”

At Professional REL, perhaps the answer should be as succinct as Carter's suggestion - “That is a legal target.” - but even there, it doesn't hurt to tell players to ask better questions.

d:^D

Feb. 27, 2016 12:04:16 AM

John Carter
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Tournament Organizer

USA - Pacific Northwest

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Succinct would be “yes.”
In my experience, I find that small amount of added rules verbiage encourages players to ask follow-ups without angering the opponent who suddenly sees judge bias.

Answering more than asked or fishing for more questions are slippery slopes that will anger opponents. Sometimes you have to pick your poison.

I find that fishing makes opponents mad over & over & over. That Spellskite guy might get just as upset, but that happens nl once.

Being there to follow up & keep a human face is a vital part of the process. Don't cherry pick words without context.

Feb. 29, 2016 03:34:03 AM

Jacob Faturechi
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific West

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

I have been guilty of OA. I make mistakes. It happens. I apologize, try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them.

I find it helpful to include the following in my HJ announcements:

“If you have a question, raise your hand and call a judge. Don't ask your opponent. He does not have your best interest at heart. I will answer the question you ask. When you ask a question, make sure you are asking the question you want to ask. I may not have your best interest at heart.”

The last part usually gets a laugh, which helps people remember it. I get far fewer awkward questions with that.

Feb. 29, 2016 12:16:22 PM

Flu Tschi
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

German-speaking countries

Can a judge be guilty of giving Outside Assistance?

Originally posted by Jacob Faturechi:

I have been guilty of OA. I make mistakes. It happens. I apologize, try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them.

I find it helpful to include the following in my HJ announcements:

“If you have a question, raise your hand and call a judge. Don't ask your opponent. He does not have your best interest at heart. I will answer the question you ask. When you ask a question, make sure you are asking the question you want to ask. I may not have your best interest at heart.”

The last part usually gets a laugh, which helps people remember it. I get far fewer awkward questions with that.

Haha, i do like that alot! I will steal your idea! *swoop and gone*