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Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Feb. 29, 2016 02:53:26 PM

Robert Langmaid
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

I would rule the Spawnbinder mage dies as this is the first moment that the Mimic trigger has a visible effect on the game state.
It is a cheap play but I believe still legal.

Feb. 29, 2016 08:46:41 PM

Jarrett Boutilier
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Originally posted by Raymond Cheung:

I would verify the flow of events from both players. Assuming that Aang made no acknowledgement of the Eldrazi Mimic trigger (cast Walker of the Wastes, move to combat), I would rule this as a Missed Trigger. Eldrazi Mimic has a “may” and requires a choice to be made upon resolution (whether you want to change its power and toughness or not), and since Aang did not make any indication towards it, the default applies and it remains a 2/1. Naya has the option of putting the trigger on the stack, but I imagine she will decline.

I agree with the direction you are moving with this Ray, a few things need to be mentioned. You seem to be combining two different fixes for missed triggers. The Eldrazi Mimics ability doesn't have a default action, you choose to resolve the ability or not. See Pact Of Negation as a trigger with a default action.

The reason I point this out is it effects how we resolve the ability, if a player forgets about their pact trigger, they are assumed to have chosen the default, which is to lose the game. We don't ask the opponent to put the trigger on the stack after the fact. With the eldrazi mimics trigger however, it will go on the stack regardless of the players choosing at the time it would trigger (walker etb). They do need to make a decision at this point to resolve the ability or not, which is there chance to show awareness of the trigger.

March 1, 2016 01:58:48 PM

Raymond Cheung
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Originally posted by Jarrett Boutilier:

Raymond Cheung
I would verify the flow of events from both players. Assuming that Aang made no acknowledgement of the Eldrazi Mimic trigger (cast Walker of the Wastes, move to combat), I would rule this as a Missed Trigger. Eldrazi Mimic has a “may” and requires a choice to be made upon resolution (whether you want to change its power and toughness or not), and since Aang did not make any indication towards it, the default applies and it remains a 2/1. Naya has the option of putting the trigger on the stack, but I imagine she will decline.

I agree with the direction you are moving with this Ray, a few things need to be mentioned. You seem to be combining two different fixes for missed triggers. The Eldrazi Mimics ability doesn't have a default action, you choose to resolve the ability or not. See Pact Of Negation as a trigger with a default action.

The reason I point this out is it effects how we resolve the ability, if a player forgets about their pact trigger, they are assumed to have chosen the default, which is to lose the game. We don't ask the opponent to put the trigger on the stack after the fact. With the eldrazi mimics trigger however, it will go on the stack regardless of the players choosing at the time it would trigger (walker etb). They do need to make a decision at this point to resolve the ability or not, which is there chance to show awareness of the trigger.


Ah, I have chosen my words poorly. I forgot the usage of “default” is used for another part of Missed Trigger. Thank you for pointing this out!

March 2, 2016 05:01:18 PM

Patrick Vorbroker
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Alright, let's wrap this one up! As always, thanks to all of you for your participation, and for finding policy to support your position.

In this scenario, Aang has indeed missed his trigger. Eldrazi Mimic's is fairly unique among Power/Toughness changing triggers, because the words ‘you may’ give it a choice on resolution, when other such triggers generally don't (prowess, for example). When we check the IPG concerning triggers with choices on resolution, we find that:

A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action to be taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly taking an action in the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.

In this case, by passing priority to move from the main phase to combat without mentioning the trigger or a P/T change, Aang has missed the trigger. As the trigger is not generally detrimental, there is no penalty. Briefly educate if necessary about why this trigger is unique, ask Naya if she would like the trigger placed on the stack, then have the players continue with their match.

Thanks again for joining us this week, check back later this week for another splashing scenario!

March 3, 2016 03:38:16 AM

Denis Leber
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

German-speaking countries

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Since this question is VERY important at the moment with upcoming GPs I can't wait for the answer.

after reading all the great comments above I clearly favor the “missed the may-effect upon resolution” therefore the 2/1 Mimic stays a 2/1 mimic.

Non-rule-addition: The case with Dismember a Mimic Target is known (i guess). Looking at that case should “show” that it is important to state if the “may”-trigger happened or not. In case of Dismember it is “most of the time” reasonable to say that the may-trigger is NOT used.

Still I am not completely happy with the “benefitial and nonbenefitial” ruling on triggers. Whether a trigger is “beneficial” highly various with Board and gamestate. My favorite Example “Bob”. Even though I try to make comparisons to different “Trigger-rulings” I do not consider this off-topic.

March 3, 2016 04:32:21 AM

Lev Kotlyar
Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program))

Europe - North

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

Originally posted by Denis Leber:

Since this question is VERY important at the moment with upcoming GPs I can't wait for the answer.

after reading all the great comments above I clearly favor the “missed the may-effect upon resolution” therefore the 2/1 Mimic stays a 2/1 mimic.

Non-rule-addition: The case with Dismember a Mimic Target is known (i guess). Looking at that case should “show” that it is important to state if the “may”-trigger happened or not. In case of Dismember it is “most of the time” reasonable to say that the may-trigger is NOT used.

Still I am not completely happy with the “benefitial and nonbenefitial” ruling on triggers. Whether a trigger is “beneficial” highly various with Board and gamestate. My favorite Example “Bob”. Even though I try to make comparisons to different “Trigger-rulings” I do not consider this off-topic.

Denis,
Patrick's post right above is the answer to this scenario.

The key word that helps understanding the difference between the triggers we give Warnings for missing and the ones we don't is in the word “usually” that is used in IPG: “usually considered detrimental”.
For more detailed explanation of this concept you can refer to Annotated IPG here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/

LK

March 3, 2016 10:26:17 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

The Highest Form of Flattery - SILVER

As Lev pointed out, Patrick's post is the ‘O’fficial answer to this scenario.

Also, the L4+ judges are crafting a post to explain some of the various ways Mimic can “go wrong”, and how the IPG applies in each case.

d:^D