Judges, welcome to a new edition of Knowledge Pool. This one is Bronze, so we expect L1s to benefit the most from it. L2s and higher, please give the L1s a few days to enjoy this scenario before chiming in.

You can find the blog post here.

Amita and Norm are engrossed in the final game of round six in a Competitive REL Sealed event. Top 8 is on the line. Norm casts Launch Party, targeting Amita’s Centaur Token, and sacrifices Guttersnipe (to pay for Launch Party). Amita looks at her hand, looks at the board, looks back at her hand, sighs, and says “Launch Party resolves.” Norm responds, “Okay. Take four.”

Amita pauses. “Four? Launch Party only causes two. Guttersnipe is in your graveyard.”

Norm says “No, I talked with a judge about this before. I’m 100% sure you take four.”

The world echoes with the unanimous “Judge!” call.

Judge Jay walks over, “How may I help you two?” He takes a seat by the players and listens as both players explain the situation.

Norm: “…so Amita takes four damage, right?”

Jay responds, “Well, no, she doesn’t. You see, the Guttersnipe is–”

Norm interrupts Jay. “Wait, WHAT level Judge are you?”

Jay, taken aback, stutters, “I’m a Level One J–”

Norm rolls his eyes and loudly bellows, “Can we get a REAL Judge over here?”

A shocked hush falls over the surrounding spectators and players.

What should Jay do in this situation?

I would politely tell him that is my final ruling, and then remind him he
can appeal to the head judge if he would like.
On Apr 3, 2013 10:09 AM, “Bryan Spellman” <forum-3670@apps.magicjudges.org>
wrote:

The blog post says that this is a silver scenario. The forum post says that it is a bronze scenario.

Which is it?

First of all, explain to the player that this behaviour is not appropriate, keeping a level head and a calm tone. Explain the answer to the situation at hand (i.e. that the Launch Party will only deal two damage), deal with any penalties (GPEs) as necessary (from the paragraph I can't see any), and then issue a Warning for Unsporting Conduct - Minor to Norm.

Such behaviour towards a tournament official should not be tolerated and it should be curtailed immediately; however it does not seem severe enough to warrant USC - Major.

If Jay is the Head Judge, he should explain that his ruling is final. If Jay is not the Head Judge, he should (if he feels that Norm is dissatisfied with the answer), explain to Norm that he has the right to an appeal after he has issued a ruling.

Jack Doyle
L1, London, UK

Edited Jack Doyle (April 3, 2013 01:37:37 PM)

Originally posted by William Anderson:

The blog post says that this is a silver scenario. The forum post says that it is a bronze scenario. Which is it?

Bronze - sorry for the confusion.

lol i'll call HJ and explain all the situation.. and after that answer i suggest Unsporting Conduct…A Player can't talk like this to a Judge.. :P But maybe is too much…but also i think that respect is the 1° thing

Jay should ask if Norm is appealing to the Head Judge with that question of “Can we get a REAL judge over here”.
If he is, then Jay should proceed to give him a Warning for USC - Minor (assuming it's his first infraction), based on the IPG:
USC - Minor
Example C: A player appeals to the Head Judge before waiting for the floor judge to issue a ruling

Otherwise, Jay can politely inform Norm to wait for the final ruling from Jay, and if he is not satisfied with it, or thinks that it is not correct, may then appeal to the Head Judge. However, Jay should also add that the Head Judge's ruling is final once the appeal is processed.

Also, after the game, or event, if it's possible, to get a hold of Norm, with a few other fellow judges running the event, to explain to Norm that regardless of the level of judge that's attending to the table, he/she is a DCI certified judge and is definitely well-versed with the rules to be able to provide the most accurate ruling possible when requested. Just because a person's an L1 doesn't make him any lesser than an L(>1) judge (unless you guys are talking about being HJ for events and stuffs like that).

(My Mistake, answered early.)

Edited Elliot Raff (April 3, 2013 03:17:13 PM)

Sometimes I forget I just levelled up. Editing out my response for now.

Edited Adam Zakreski (April 3, 2013 02:43:37 PM)

“L2s and higher, please give the L1s a few days to enjoy this scenario
before chiming in.”


2013/4/3 Adam Zakreski <forum-3670@apps.magicjudges.org>

This is certainly USC-Minor. Norm is not letting the floor judge finish their ruling before asking for another one, and I dont feel that whether or not Norm is framing this as an appeal specifically is important: it's what he's asking for in spirit. When giving the penalty for USC Minor, Jay should be sure to inform Noam as to why he is recieving it and how to avoid it in the future (by telling him that as an on-staff, dci certified judge, Jay is tasked with providing accurate and researched rulings like any judge of a higher level would be, and Norm is inhibiting his ability to do the job assigned to him). Jay should then proceed with the remainder of his ruling on Guttersnipe, informing Norm when it is the appropriate time for him to appeal the ruling.

Darcy

I'm with everyone else here with giving an Unsporting Conduct - Minor. It seems that this is just about the same as appealing to the HJ before the floor judge has made a ruling. I would also assume that this exact example in the IPG comes from situations similar to this.

I'm curious what would have needed to happen in this situation for this to be upgraded to Unsporting Conduct - Major. It says in the IPG “Fails to follow a direct instruction from a tournament official.” Can this criterion ever be met without a TO, HJ, staff, or scorekeeper present?

But hasn't the floor judge given his ruling? He's said that Amita only takes two.

Jay should take care not to get hostile, because this is a situation that has the potential to escalate and the most important thing is to keep the tension in check. That being said, another very important thing is that Norm needs to be made aware that while he retains the right to appeal to the Head Judge, challenging the floor judge's legitimacy is wholly inappropriate and he needs to respect Jay's responsibilities as a tournament official regardless of his level.

Thus, Jay must be calm but firm in reminding Norm that he will have the right to appeal to the Head Judge after his ruling is completed, but that right now he needs to hear Jay out because it is still his ruling to issue as a floor judge. Jay should also suggest to Norm that they should have a talk with the other judges about why this behaviour is unacceptable afterward; not only will it provide an educational opportunity for Norm, but in all likelihood Jay will also pick up some information on how better to handle these situations in future.

As noted above, the disruptive outburst is a clear case of Unsporting Conduct-Minor, and Norm should be penalized as such with a Warning. However, with Norm already questioning his legitimacy, there is the risk that Jay immediately issuing the UC-Minor himself might lead Norm to believe that Jay is a rogue judge on a power trip, and that's a perception we would prefer to avoid where possible. As a result, Jay may consider calling over a second judge strictly to handle the UC-Minor. If he does so, hopefully the second judge will also help confirm Jay's authority to make the Guttersnipe call in the process.

In any case, Jay should be the one to give the floor ruling that the initial judge call demanded; to do otherwise would be seen as acceding to Norm's inappropriate demand. He should also be mindful of the time taken by all rulings issued, and issue the appropriate extension.

I see asking for a ‘REAL judge’ as an insult towards Jay, and under USC - Minor it says “It may affect the comfort level of those around the individual” and as an example “A player uses excessively vulgar and profane language.”
It is profane language according to my quick Wikipedia search as a Pejorative is included in Profanity. But please correct me if I get these terms wrong.
So even if Norm patiently waits for Jay to finish his ruling to say those exact same words, I would still say it's an USC - Minor.

So in this actual case Norm should be informed of these 2 types of Unsporting Conduct he should not be doing.

Edited Toby Hazes (April 3, 2013 07:46:48 PM)