There are actually very few situations which could lead AP to have to act in Beginning of combat while they could just as well act in Main Phase one:
A few (mostly obscure) spells and abilities can only be cast/activated during combat
AP needs to empty NAP’s mana pool.
AP needs a beginning of combat trigger to have resolved to be able to play on.
…
The existence of this shortcut is based on the fact it’s never in NAP’s interest to act before he has to. And we do not want NAP to be in a situation where he was perceived as acting in Main Phase one unless he actually intended to.
This admittedly potentially requires AP to reveal some additional information about the game state or their intent. This is an acceptable trade-off to achieve the goals this shortcut was designed to achieve primarily: Make sure NAP acts whenever they intend to act.
Edited Brad Brown (Feb. 14, 2017 01:51:39 PM)
Originally posted by Brad Brown:
It’s time to revisit the value in this shortcut.
Edited Lyle Waldman (Feb. 14, 2017 02:35:28 AM)
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
To Riki's point, though, I just reread GPE - MT in IPG and would like to propose a simple revision based on this example: In the example, Andy controls only 1 artifact creature, his Servo token. In IPG, there is an exception to MT for targeted effects where the exception is “target opponent”. I would extend that exception to any case in which a) there is no immediate visible impact on the game state and b) there are only n legal targets, no matter what the target is, where n is the minimum number of targets the trigger requires (e.g. for Weldfast Engineer 1 target, for Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger 2 targets, etc); the trigger would still have to be remembered at the appropriate time, when it would become relevant to the visible game state. For example, in this instance, the trigger would resolve naturally, targeting the Servo token, because that is the only legal target. I think this is probably the most common place for MT to come into effect, because “obviously I'm targeting my Servo token, it's the only legal target, duh”.
Originally posted by Jeff S Higgins:Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
To Riki's point, though, I just reread GPE - MT in IPG and would like to propose a simple revision based on this example: In the example, Andy controls only 1 artifact creature, his Servo token. In IPG, there is an exception to MT for targeted effects where the exception is “target opponent”. I would extend that exception to any case in which a) there is no immediate visible impact on the game state and b) there are only n legal targets, no matter what the target is, where n is the minimum number of targets the trigger requires (e.g. for Weldfast Engineer 1 target, for Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger 2 targets, etc); the trigger would still have to be remembered at the appropriate time, when it would become relevant to the visible game state. For example, in this instance, the trigger would resolve naturally, targeting the Servo token, because that is the only legal target. I think this is probably the most common place for MT to come into effect, because “obviously I'm targeting my Servo token, it's the only legal target, duh”.
The reason why “target opponent” is an exception is because 100% of the time when the IPG is used, there will only be one opponent. Having different sets of rules for different board states would cause the policy to become more complex than is worth the trade-off.
Originally posted by = IPG 2.3:
If cards are placed into a public zone, then their order is known and the infraction can be handled as a Game Rule Violation. Order cannot be determined from card faces only visible to one player
unless the card is in a uniquely identifiable position (such as on top of the library, or as the only
card in hand.)
Originally posted by Riki Hayashi:Originally posted by Brad Brown:
It’s time to revisit the value in this shortcut.
This is a fine piece of writing. I agree on your point about beginning of combat triggers becoming more common being a central problem in this narrative. Do you have any suggestions on how the shortcut should be “revisited”?
Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:
The question then becomes: “At what point should Nancy cast her Fatal Push if she wants to stop Andy from doing his thing?” At which point my answer is: Nancy should not play Magic assuming Andy is an idiot. If Nancy does not give Andy the credit he deserves as her opponent and gets punished for it and loses, then so be it. By not killing the Weldfast Engineer in 1st main phase, Nancy says to Andy (figuratively speaking): “I think you're a big dummy and will forget to kill me, and I'm willing to bet my chance to win this game on the fact that's you're a dummy, so let's see how big of a dummy you are.” So Nancy should take that bet: If Nancy doesn't kill the Engineer and she loses the game, I think I'm OK with a rules system that supports that, and that's my proposed fix.
Edited Brad Brown (Feb. 14, 2017 05:51:49 AM)
Originally posted by Andy Peterson:
The issue comes from those who do not natively speak English. If you are in a tournament with those who speak a different language, you need the rules set so one player can't use vocabulary to gain an advantage over another.
Originally posted by Benjamin Lurie:
Real situation I had in a PPTQ of mine that I believe demonstrates why the shortcut exists.
AP: Combat?
NAP: Sure
AP: Cast Through the Breach
NAP: Hold on, Judge!
If you can think of a new MTR shortcut that A: addresses the ambiguity of combat and attacks, so as not to trap players into not being able to crew their vehicles and such, and B: Prevents the line of play cited above, I'm all ears. But, as it stands the current policy as written works really well to prevent these sorts of situations.
Originally posted by Brad Brown:This sentiment is raised regularly in discussions about the shortcut. The obvious questions is: Why? Why do you want to do this? What's the game action? Because as stated the phrase does nothing to move the game forward. It only serves to slow it down and/or lead to confusion.
Basically, right now even if I use the phrase “I'd like to pass priority in my main phase so that I can move to the beginning of combat step”, you're still using the shortcut, even though you're explicitly saying what you want to do. I think there just needs to be an update so exceptions can be applied if stated explicitly.
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