Hi judges, and welcome to another Knowledge Pool scenario! You can find the blog post here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=714

Arnie and Newt are playing a tense match in Round 7 of a Legacy Grand Prix. The battlefield is cluttered with permanents, including Arnie's Sulfuric Vortex and Newt's Sylvan Library. Arnie passes turn, and Newt reaches towards her library, points at her Sylvan Library and asks, “Draw step?” Arnie glances at his hand, then back up to Newt and says, “Yep.” Newt handles her Sylvan Library trigger, attacks, and passes turn. Arnie untaps, looks at his hand again, draws, and plays a land.

As a judge watching this match, what do you do, if anything?

As Arnie controls Sulfuric Vortex, so he is responsible for remembering the triggers from it. Sulfuric Vortex is a symmetrical ability, so we can take whose turn it is into account when determining whether or not the trigger is generally detrimental.

When the trigger is missed during Newt's turn (by explicitly moving to the Draw step), it is not a generally detrimental trigger for Arnie. Since we would not issue an infraction in this case, we do not intervene.

When the trigger is then missed during Arnie's turn (by drawing his card for the turn), it is generally detrimental for Arnie, so we intervene to issue him a Warning for GPE - Missed Trigger. Newt has the option of putting the trigger on the stack at this time. It is also worth asking a few pointed questions to ensure that Arnie has not intentionally missed his triggers, but given that he just missed it on his opponent's turn as well, it is likely he has indeed simply forgotten about the Sulfuric Vortex.

Edited Vincent Roscioli (May 22, 2013 01:06:45 PM)

Vortex's trigger has 2 different modes - Damaging opponent and damaging
controller. Only damaging controller is detrimential. Therefore, I would
interfere when Arnie tries to draw a card, give him a Warning for Missed
Trigger (provided that it is genuine mistake and it was not commited
before). Then I would ask Newt whether (s)he wants to put the trigger on
the stack.

Prior this moment, no infraction was committed.


2013/5/22 Josh Stansfield <forum-4278-4d18@apps.magicjudges.org>

Well, it seems Arnie is missing his Sulfuric Vortex trigger.

Since Arnie asked “Draw Step?” without taking any actions with intention to prematurely advancing the game state, giving Newt the opportunity to remember his trigger, I wouldn't say Arnie is causing the trigger to be missed. So, this turn the “usually beneficial” trigger is forgotten, and that's it.

Next turn, Arnie forgets his trigger again (this time it's “usually detrimental”), and Newt does not point out. However, since this situation requires a Warning, I would intervene to issue one. As the IPG points out: “Judges should not intervene in a missed trigger situation unless they intend to issue a Warning (…)”

Newt might be pretty upset, as he might have intentionally not pointed out Arnie's trigger just so he wont remember it again on his turn.

IPG 2.1 Missed Trigger “Judges should not intervene in a missed trigger situation unless they intend to issue a Warning or have reason to suspect that the controller is intentionally missing his or her triggered abilities.”

For the first missed trigger, there is no reason to intervene. It is a missed trigger that is considered benificial to the controller of the controlling player (Arnie). “The controller of a missed triggered ability receives a Warning only if the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player. The current game state is not a factor in determining this, though symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected.”

For the second missed trigger, I would intervene, give a Warning, and allow Newt to chose whether or not to put the ability on the stack. A slight investigation should be made into whether the trigger was intentionally missed, however, because the Newt's trigger was missed, this one was also, probably unintentional.

So Arnie controls the Sulfuric Vortex trigger and during Newt's turn it has been missed since Arnie fails to point it out. Arnie misses it again during his turn. Since it is a symmetrical effect we can consider who it is affecting to determine if it is detrimental or not. As such we don't need to step in when he misses the trigger on Newt's turn but it is detrimental when he misses it during his turn. We should step in and issue a missed trigger warning and provide the opponent with the choice of whether or not they want to place the trigger on the stack. We may wish to investigate whether or not Arnie was cheating by intentionally missing the trigger although I don't think that would be likely given that he missed it on Newt's turn as well.

I would intervene and issue a penalty to Arnie because he forgot about an upkeep trigger he controlled that is detrimental to him. Newt doesn't get any penalty because he did not control that trigger. I'd ask Newt if he wants the trigger to be put onto the stack; if so, it goes on the bottom of the stack. Incase Arnie asks, I'd inform him that there is no penalty for missing the trigger during Newt's upkeep because it is not a detrimental trigger to Arnie at that time. After instructing Arnie to play more carefully int he future, I would inform the head judge or my team lead about this situation just incase this infraction may be intentional.

I agree with what others have already said regarding the Missed Trigger.

I was wondering about whether Newt should be issued a Failure to Maintain Game State, so I looked it up and found this: “Not reminding an opponent about his or her triggered abilities is never Failure to Maintain Game State or Cheating.” So, no FTMGS.

It looks like how to call this has been handled quite well at this point, so I'll just add that this is a beautiful example because it includes both a detrimental and a non-detrimental trigger, so it shows cases where one trigger can be an infraction on one player's turn and not an infraction on the other player's turn.

It's quite a good illustration as to why the policy is written the way it is. Missing a trigger that hurts your opponent is basically a penalty in and of itself. Missing a trigger that hurts you is “cheating” (with a lowercase ‘c’ - not Unsporting Conduct: Cheating) and, while a simple and possibly innocent mistake, can add up to a serious advantage if done repeatedly.

Thanks for the quick and accurate responses! Looks like I didn't fool anyone who replied to this scenario, but hopefully some folks had a chance to read the thread and learn something.

Special thanks to Vincent Roscioli for the first answer, which was totally correct. Sulfuric Vortex has a “symmetrical” trigger that can be usually detrimental or not depending on whose turn it is. Arnie missed the trigger on two different turns. The first time on Newt's turn, the trigger was not usually detrimental for Arnie, so Newt isn't required to point it out, and the judge should not intervene. On Arnie's own turn, the trigger becomes usually detrimental, and the judge is obligated to step in to issue a Warning for GPE: Missed Trigger once it becomes clear that the trigger has been missed (in this case, it's when Arnie draws a card).

As Vincent correctly noted, the trigger doesn't immediately go on the stack; we ask Newt whether she wants to put the trigger on the stack (which will most likely be “yes,” but we still ask!).

Thanks to Jack Hesse for the reminder about how a player is never responsible for pointing out missed triggers an opponent controls, so Failure to Maintain Game State is not applicable here.

And special props to everyone for successfully ignoring the Sylvan Library, since it didn't present any problems in this situation. Part of the skill of judging is watching for the relevant information, and you all did a great job with that!

Thanks again, and we'll see you at the next Knowledge Pool!