Hello fellow Judges,

which infraction (+panelty +fix) is it, when we discover fake-magic-cards (Counterfeits) in a players Deck during Deck Check or during a Judge Call on Competitiv REL?

Deck Problem or Decklist Problem?
And if Deck Problem is it a Warning or upgraded to a GL?

The player was not aware that the cards were Fakes.

Edited Max Tiedemann (Oct. 4, 2017 12:07:25 PM)

They've presented a deck which is missing some cards that they wrote on their deck-list; this is a Deck Problem. If the issue is discovered during a deck check, issue a Game Loss. Otherwise, issue a Warning. Locate any missing cards from the deck and add them; we can probably give a player a few minutes to run and buy a new one from the traders at a GP but if there is no way they can replace this card then the IPG is quite clear that we're being shifted into Decklist Problem territory:

“If a player is unable to locate cards (or identical equivalents) from their main deck, treat it as a Decklist Problem.” - IPG 3.5

The Decklist Problem is straightforward; remove the offending cards from the deck and decklist and then add basic lands if the deck now violates any minimum card requirements. These changes can be later reverted; if the player can't get the replacement from a vendor but knows they can drive home between rounds and grab a spare (genuine) copy we're happy to change it back later.

Edited Winter (Oct. 4, 2017 12:37:03 PM)

I agree that this is a DL problem if they can't find replacement cards. I also do agree that technically they do have cards on their decklist that are not actually in their deck. What I don't like about calling it a Deck Problem is that this infraction serves the purpose to stop potential advantages/abuses that involve playing cards that are not on your decklist (or not playing cards that are on it). This is not actually the case here. Why don't we treat this like “lost cards”? You get 10 minutes to replace them without a penalty, afterwards it is handled as a DL problem.

Quote from the Deck Problem Philosophy:

Players are expected to call attention to deck errors immediately, and not gain any potential advantage from having the cards in their deck.

Edited Konrad Eibl (Oct. 4, 2017 02:18:26 PM)

First, Official: what Sophie wrote.

Konrad, we believe the player had no idea they were counterfeit, but we record the Deck Problem (or DL, if it comes to that), in case this happens again.

d:^D

Point of clarification - when it says “treat it as a DLP” are we talking about simply what fixes are applied or does the entire infraction event move to being recorded and penalized as DLP instead of DP?

If we can't replace the card and need to modify the decklist, then we've met the actual factual definition of DLP and Deck Problem is just politely giving us directions. Record this as a Decklist Problem and issue penalties accordingly.

“The decklist … needs to be modified due to card loss over the course of the tournament.” - IPG 3.4

Edit, just in case it comes up: Whilst we're probably not actually modifying the decklist due to card loss, as the card didn't exist in the first place, I'd hazard that that's looking a bit too closely at the wording. After all, perhaps they had a genuine copy originally; who knows? Not us!

Edited Winter (Oct. 4, 2017 11:58:02 PM)

A question, who determines the authenticity of the cards? I am referring to those cards which are awesome counterfeits where we cannot quickly identify its authenticity.

I hope I am not derailing this thread :(

Edit: My current understanding is that a WOTC rep is the one who decides its authenticity as it is Hasbro/wotc IP afterall

Edited Chuanjie Seow (Oct. 7, 2017 12:16:39 PM)

From MTR 3.3 the HJ is the final authority on acceptable cards for a tournament.

From there on, we determine if it is an issue and handle accordingly.

Originally posted by Chuanjie Seow:

who determines the authenticity of the cards? … My current understanding is that a WOTC rep is the one who decides its authenticity as it is Hasbro/wotc IP afterall

If the HJ believes the player is playing with fake cards, the judge has the right to tell the player they can not use the cards for the rest of the event. It is not logistically feasible to contact a WotC rep in a reasonable amount of time.

If you are checking cards and unsure whether they are legal or not, there is nothing wrong with asking a vendor for help, if at at large event where this is possible. Even at a small event with no outside vendors, it may be worth the time to consult with a store employee – while many LGS employees are not going to be experts, some handle the buying and selling for their stores and may be able to help reach a conclusion on a card.

Here are a couple of links to help you determine a card's authenticity:
https://pucatrade.com/articles/2015/counterfeit

http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2014/03/how-to-spot-fake-mtg-cards/

Originally posted by Brook Gardner-Durbin:

If you are checking cards and unsure whether they are legal or not, there is nothing wrong with asking a vendor for help, if at at large event where this is possible. Even at a small event with no outside vendors, it may be worth the time to consult with a store employee – while many LGS employees are not going to be experts, some handle the buying and selling for their stores and may be able to help reach a conclusion on a card.

Most PPTQs I judge in are usually in small stores where there is only 1-2 store employee.

My issue here is when a player alleges opponent is playing with fakes. Yes I do know of the various tests but outside of light test the other tests are not feasible (unless there is a black light around). So if the conclusion is vague (I personally am unsure if the card is fake) how do I further proceed? Tell the player I do not find that the card is fake and use all diplomatic methods to calm the accuser down?

If after inspection, you didn't find any reason to believe the card is not a legit Magic card, yes, explain that to the opponent. That doesn't mean the card is a legit Magic card or not, just that, as a HJ, you didn't find any reason to take any action prescibed by the documents.

- Emilien

Originally posted by Emilien Wild:

If after inspection, you didn't find any reason to believe the card is not a legit Magic card, yes, explain that to the opponent. That doesn't mean the card is a legit Magic card or not, just that, as a HJ, you didn't find any reason to take any action prescibed by the documents.

Thank you Emilien, that was what I wanted for clarification.

If this is of large concern to you, consider investing into a loupe (I have quite a nice teller's loupe which set me back £3) and learning the tell-tale signs of authenticity. Failing a loupe, knowledge and a smartphone with a decent camera are often sufficient to be able to see the rosette patterns on cards.

Shout out to Christian Genz for presenting on this topic at the UKISA Regional Conference and teaching many of us that a smartphone camera can be a valuable tool when investigating the authenticity of cards.

I would like to ask a follow up question on this: Why does the commented MTR on JudgeApps say this? This is not the same as the official answer by Scott, but rather what I was trying to suggest.

Also, the player using the card may not realize that they are using fake cards, so aside from alerting them that they are using fake cards and informing them that they must replace them, we, as judges, should not take further action unless we believe they knew and were using such cards intentionally.

Edited Konrad Eibl (Nov. 6, 2017 04:18:57 PM)

That paragraph means “don’t take the cards off them, or call the police” etc. It’s explaining that the judge’s responsibility is only to deal with the deck legality issue. It is not the judges responsibility to get into issues of copyright, or trademarks, or fraud or anything like that.

Just ask them not to use them, apply appropriate penalties if it means the deck is illegal, and carry on.