Eric,

This isn't a satisfying answer, but it's the best that I can give without better knowledge (read - being there):

It depends on what the investigation reveals. This is clearly weird to me as someone who has played Liliana of the Veil a whole bunch. I'd ask the following questions to start:

-What card did you originally move over?
-Why did you choose that card?
-What card did you discard?
-Why did you switch?
-What deck are you playing? (I can see that from the table, but that's relevant to know)

From there, I'd evaluate what I've learned and decide whether or not it's Cheating.

For your situation, did you talk to the floor judge at all? There may have been something that the judge found that you are unaware of. Or the judge might have been unaware of/missed a detail that you noticed because you were there.

I will say that it's easy to get distracted when you are both trying to calm players down and figure out how to get the game moving. If a spectator has info, I'd love to get that extra info, so I want to encourage spectators to please talk to the judge on the call (and judges to encourage that behavior).

The answer to “was he cheating” is always going to depend on what the player(a) say when you ask them questions. On the face of it, it looks like Bill tried to change his mind when he wasn’t allowed to. So I’d start off asking him what happened and why he did what he did. I’m going to take into account what card he actually ended up discarding, and what cards are still left, and figure out why a lightning bolt might change his decision. The way he acted (per your description) makes it sound like he know how Liliana is supposed to work (simultaneous discards so you don’t get to see what the opponent is choosing), and so he may potentially be up to shenanigans. But I’d have to hear answers to question.

Mark

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

On the face of it, it looks like Bill tried to change his mind when he wasn’t allowed to.
Mark

Is he not allowed to change his mind?

To borrow from David Hibbs post on another thread:

“Now, was it cheating? This is much more interesting. There are 3 components to cheating:
1) Something illegal happened and the player noticed it
2) The player must be trying to gain advantage through their action (or inaction)
3) The player knew that their action was illegal.
I like to tell judges that cheating is like a 3-legged stool. If even one of these is not met, the stool falls over and it is not cheating.”

#2 is likely met, since switching the card was based on seeing what Abe discarded.
#1 is likely met. Swapping the card is an illegal play and Bill is aware that he swapped the card out.
#3 is the tricky one. Did Bill know that he couldn't decide what to discard after seeing what Abe discarded? As Mark said, his actions seem to indicate that he knew how the card was supposed to work, so he could have known that changing his mind is illegal. However, based on Gareth's post, it's certainly possible that people don't know how simultaneous discard effects work.

So you have to investigate to determine what he know.

Shawn

Have realised this is a dual choice in a hidden zone and that no information should be revealed before both players discard. Ignore previous comment

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

On the face of it, it looks like Bill tried to change his mind when he wasn’t allowed to.
Mark

Is he not allowed to change his mind?

Yep - whenever a decision is required in Magic, there is a point where it is too late to change your mind. And for me, Bill was passed that point. He had time to think, and then time to change his mind. We're passed those points.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

On the face of it, it looks like Bill tried to change his mind when he wasn’t allowed to.
Mark

Is he not allowed to change his mind?

Yep - whenever a decision is required in Magic, there is a point where it is too late to change your mind. And for me, Bill was passed that point. He had time to think, and then time to change his mind. We're passed those points.

Rather than “too much time has passed”, I would point out that the player was changing his mind as a result of information gained.

Time to think and change your mind is quite possible. What determines if a
trigger is missed? The key part here is that he had the opportunity to gain
information before he changed his mind.

śr., 22 maj 2019 o 09:28 Mark Mc Govern <

From watching the game I can tell that both players are invested modern players are familiar with how LotV works. I was not able to talk to the floor judge sadly. I think if i was in Abe's shoes it would have been correct appeal and get more of an investigation done. Bill was choosing between academy ruins and mox opal, both of which had another in play. Started at first to discard the ruins, then chose to switch to mox opal. Maybe because Abe had a fulminator mage in play.

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

Event is a modern Grand Prix. Round one of the event. Players are Abe on Grixis control and Bill on Lantern.
Abe activates Liliana of the Veil, Bill says “Ok”, Thinks for a moment and separates a card from his hand, holding it in front of his graveyard. Abe makes his selection, moves toward grave, pauses, and drops his card(lightning bolt) in the bin. Bill sees the card and quickly switches what card he is discarding. Words got alittle heated and judge was called.

Just wondering what everyones take on this is? I was not the judge for the event, merely a bi-standard, and the floor judge ruled no penalty.

So, Bill got away with changing his choice after seeing the card that Abe was discarding?
Even if we assess no cheating, that seems unfair to me.

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

Event is a modern Grand Prix. Round one of the event. Players are Abe on Grixis control and Bill on Lantern.
Abe activates Liliana of the Veil, Bill says “Ok”, Thinks for a moment and separates a card from his hand, holding it in front of his graveyard. Abe makes his selection, moves toward grave, pauses, and drops his card(lightning bolt) in the bin. Bill sees the card and quickly switches what card he is discarding. Words got alittle heated and judge was called.

Just wondering what everyones take on this is? I was not the judge for the event, merely a bi-standard, and the floor judge ruled no penalty.

So, no fix? Bill got away with changing his choice after seeing the card that Abe was discarding?
Even if we assess no cheating, that seems unfair to me.

Edited Francesco Scialpi (May 22, 2019 04:19:39 PM)

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

Event is a modern Grand Prix. Round one of the event. Players are Abe on Grixis control and Bill on Lantern.
Abe activates Liliana of the Veil, Bill says “Ok”, Thinks for a moment and separates a card from his hand, holding it in front of his graveyard. Abe makes his selection, moves toward grave, pauses, and drops his card(lightning bolt) in the bin. Bill sees the card and quickly switches what card he is discarding. Words got alittle heated and judge was called.

Just wondering what everyones take on this is? I was not the judge for the event, merely a bi-standard, and the floor judge ruled no penalty.

So, no fix? Bill got away with changing his choice after seeing the card that Abe was discarding?
Even if we assess no cheating, that seems unfair to me.

I thought so as well. The floor judge left no warning or penalty. And let Bill choose what ever card he wanted (he went with the mox opal)

Originally posted by Eric Slater:

Bill was choosing between academy ruins and mox opal, both of which had another in play. Started at first to discard the ruins, then chose to switch to mox opal. Maybe because Abe had a fulminator mage in play.

This seems much more relevant than the Lightning Bolt that was discarded, although what card they didn't discard could be relevant to decision-making. However, that AP chose their card to discard and showed it also isn't an automatic lock-in here. What's relevant is whether NAP made it clear that they had made a choice. Separating a card and holding it in front of the graveyard could be a way to indicate this. But were they holding it face down or vertical with the card face facing them? The former seems much more definitive as a physical indication of a choice. The latter could be them leaning towards choosing the card but still thinking. Did NAP start to show the card, see the Lightning Bolt, then pull it back?