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Competitive REL » Post: What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

Sept. 2, 2019 12:09:23 PM [Original Post]

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

Included in the MTR is this definition of free information:

“The name of any visible object”

When a player is searching through a deck, are the cards visible? I believe yes, since they're visible - but apparently not everyone thinks the same way. So I'm hoping to get some clarification on the matter

Sept. 2, 2019 01:07:37 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]

Isaac King
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))

Barriere, British Columbia, Canada

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

If I am looking through my opponent's deck and can't read a card name because it's in a foreign language, my opponent is required to tell me what card it is if I ask.

Sept. 2, 2019 12:17:00 PM

Martin Cuchet
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Tournament Organizer

France

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

A visible object is an object that is visible for both players, if only one player can get informations, it can't be free information.

Sept. 2, 2019 01:07:37 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]

Isaac King
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))

Barriere, British Columbia, Canada

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

If I am looking through my opponent's deck and can't read a card name because it's in a foreign language, my opponent is required to tell me what card it is if I ask.

Sept. 2, 2019 02:17:11 PM

Beau
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Midatlantic

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

I can kind of understand the counter-argument - while I'm searching my opponent's library, only I have access to that information, not them; the library isn't being revealed. And if only one player has access to the information, then it can't be free or derived, which means it must be hidden. So we can't obligate the opponent to help with any part of it.

That said:
(1) Players are always allowed to reveal hidden information that they have access to. If I search my opponent's library, take a card out, put it on the table face-up, and say “what is that card?”, then I've not committed any sort of infraction here (unless you want to be extraordinarily pedantic and get me for rearranging the library, which one can technically only do during a shuffle, not a search).
(2) Words like “visible” that aren't defined game terms, the way “object” is, take their plain English meaning. So an object (which this clearly is, since it's a card) that both players can see the front face of, seems to be “visible” to both of those players. Which means it's a “visible object”.
(2) If AP did this, and NAP refused to help identify the card, then I'd ask NAP both to identify it, and what they intend to gain by not helping AP here. It seems the only advantage would be to hope that AP is satisfied with not knowing what the card is instead of calling for a judge.

I don't believe that I would issue NAP a penalty here, certainly not the first time that this happens. MTR 4.1 does allow them to say that they're unable or unwilling to help with Free Information. But if that's the case then I'd explain that NAP needs to be the one calling a judge, to explain why they're unwilling to help identify the card. If a player did this more than once at my event, without calling the judge themselves, I'd pull them aside for a conversation that would likely end in either a USC:Minor for not following the earlier instructions or a CPV for refusing to help with Free Information (and not calling a judge themselves to explain why).

Sept. 2, 2019 06:56:39 PM

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

Since I can't edit, and there are a few different angles of discussion and questions, could we get an on this please?

Sept. 2, 2019 08:14:02 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

What does "Visible" mean in the MTR with regards to free information?

Isaac’s answer is marked as Accepted. That IS your ‘O’.

d:^D