Good morning judges! Welcome to another week of Knowledge Pool. Today's topic is Silver, which means it's geared towards L0s and L1s who are learning the IPG. L2s, please wait until Thursday before chiming in.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=894

Alex and Nick are playing at a Sealed PTQ. Alex attacks with a bunch of creatures, and before blockers are declared, Nick flash-Bestows a Boon Satyr on his Minotaur. In response, Alex destroys the Minotaur with Hero's Downfall. Nick laments “Noooooo, my Bestowaway!!!” and proceeds to put both the Satyr and the Minotaur into his graveyard. Nick then declares his blockers, and combat happens normally. Afterward, Alex casts a God, which Nick counters with Swan Song, exclaiming “YOUR SPELL IS BIRD.” Alex gets his 2/2, passes the turn, and Nick draws for his turn.

At this point, spectator Sam realizes that the Boon Satyr should not have gone to the graveyard, asks the players to pause their match, and calls you over. Your investigation reveals that neither player knew that the Satyr should have become a creature rather than go to the graveyard. What do you do?

In putting Boon Satyr into his graveyard Nick commits a GPE - GRV and Alex GPE - FtMGS. The game should not be backed up to the point where the error occurred since too much has happened.
Both players get a warning, Nick for GRV and Alex for FtMGS.
I think Boon Satyr is put onto the battlefield as an additional remedy since it was put in the wrong zone when leaving the stack and it is still within a turn since the mistake happenend.

Looks like GPE-GRV for N and GPE-FTMG for A. Boon Satyr was put in the graveyard by being incorrectly resolved, not by Hero's Downfall.

As for the fix - move Satyr into correct zone (it's within turn from an error) and I would not rewind the gamestate. Attack involving multiple creatures, Swan Song + info on countered spell and a card drawn make it a bit too complex for my taste.

Warning to both players.

Hello, and thanks for this scenario!

My understanding is that I should give two Warnings, one to Nick for GPE - GRV for putting an object in the wrong zone, and the other to Alex for GPE - FtMGS.

The GRV penalty comes with an Additional Remedy that could concern the scenario, which is: “If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.” This allows me to put the Boon Satyr in the battlefield under Nick's control, since all the required conditions for the Additional Remedy are met.

The game can continue from Nick's first Main Phase, and I would leave the table after giving the players some minutes of additional time if the game break and the investigation have lasted more than one minute (which I suppose is likely in this scenario).


Edit #1 – I mixed the two players' names in my answer.

Edited Stefano Ferrari (Oct. 30, 2013 05:10:42 AM)

The first (and from my point of view, only) point of error is definitely the Boon Satyr being placed in the graveyard, which seems like a fairly straightforward GRV-FtMGS situation. Nick receives the GRV and Alex gets the FtMGS.

As to fixes, while the error was recent and we could consider backing up here, I believe doing so would be incredibly disruptive - we have resolved a complex combat phase, both players have played additional cards from their hand, and a card has been drawn. If we don't back up, then there is no fix, because the situation does not apply to any of the exception clauses listed under additional remedies for a Game Rules Violation (MIPG 2.5).

No fix. Remind the players to be more careful and play on.

Edit: To expand on my no fix reasoning - I don't believe this is a case of an object changing zones being placed into the wrong zone. From my perspective, since the Bestow mechanic is an exception to the common knowledge that targeted spells are countered by game rules if they don't have a legal target, Nick improperly removed his spell from the stack - it was not resolved and put into the wrong zone, it simply wasn't resolved at all.

Edited Rebecca Lawrence (Oct. 23, 2013 10:08:02 AM)

Thanks for this brainstorm !

The reminder text concerning the bestow is a misrepresentation of the rules.

However, we are in a PTQ, and players must know Magic Rules, although a perfect knowledge is not requieried.

In that case, I consider that is a GPE - GRV for Alex et GPE - FtMGS for Nick

Penalities : Warning

Fix : I put boon satyr into the battlefield from graveyard.

Edited Jean-François DURMONT (Oct. 23, 2013 10:30:55 AM)

Originally posted by Stefano Ferrari:

This allows me to put the Boon Satyr in the battlefield under Alex's control

Why would you give Nick's Boon Satyr to Alex?


EDIT:

Nathaniel Lawrence
Edit: To expand on my no fix reasoning - I don't believe this is a case of an object changing zones being placed into the wrong zone. From my perspective, since the Bestow mechanic is an exception to the common knowledge that targeted spells are countered by game rules if they don't have a legal target, Nick improperly removed his spell from the stack - it was not resolved and put into the wrong zone, it simply wasn't resolved at all.

I disagree because Nick moved a creature spell to his graveyard, not an aura spell, when it should have moved to the battlefield instead. CR 702.102d states “As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a.” Since Boon Satyr existed as a creature spell the last moment it was on the stack and not as an enchantment-aura spell, we can apply the partial fix here and move the creature to the correct zone.

Edited Eric Paré (Oct. 23, 2013 12:35:10 PM)

So, there seems to be a consensus (so far) that the infractions on the part of both players are Nick committing a GPE - GRV and Alex committing a GPE - FtMGS, with both receiving warnings, which is the conclusion I also came to.

The sticking point is the possibility of fixes. Turning back the game, in my view, is not really a good option at this point because of a number of reasons, not the least of which is because we've gone into a new turn AND both players have cast spells since the error occurred and turning back the game will give players information on their opponents hands that they didn't have before. Perhaps Alex, knowing that Nick holds a Swan Song will decide against playing his God. Perhaps by having Nick return a card from his hand to the top of his deck to effectively rewind his draw puts the Swan Song there and makes him unable to counter Alex's God. A cons of a rewind in my view FAR outweigh the pros here.

So the real question (to me) is whether we can move Nick's Boon Satyr from the graveyard to the battlefield. The “Bestowaway” occurred before blockers were declared, so HAD Nick made the proper play and put Boon Satyr on the battlefield, it opens up the can of worms on whether he would have blocked with it, what creature he would have blocked with it, and whether it (along with an attacking creature) would have even survived to the current turn. Because of that, I don't feel that putting the Boon Satyr back on the battlefield gives us a definitive answer to what the board state SHOULD be, merely one option that it COULD be, all while raising other questions which could undermine the value of the partial fix in returning the Boon Satyr.

I would give the players the aforementioned GRV (Nick) and FtMBS (Alex) along with warnings, have the players continue the game with the board state the way it is, keep the Boon Satyr in the graveyard and remind both players to play more carefully.

Edited Kevin Guinn (Oct. 23, 2013 01:45:47 PM)

I would email WotC R&D and tell them the Bestow rules, as an exception and a hack to the way the rules normally work, is confusing to many players and should be undone. Then there wouldn't be a problem here =D

But seriously, though, I'm with everyone else so far here. GRV for Alex, FtMGS for Nick, put Boon Satyr into play. BOOM, SATYR!

Originally posted by Kevin Guinn:

So the real question (to me) is whether we can move Nick's Boon Satyr from the graveyard to the battlefield. The “Bestowaway” occurred before blockers were declared, so HAD Nick made the proper play and put Boon Satyr on the battlefield, it opens up the can of worms on whether he would have blocked with it, what creature he would have blocked with it, and whether it (along with an attacking creature) would have even survived to the current turn. Because of that, I don't feel that putting the Boon Satyr back on the battlefield gives us a definitive answer to what the board state SHOULD be, merely one option that it COULD be, all while raising other questions which could undermine the value of the partial fix in returning the Boon Satyr.

From the IPG:

These procedures do not, and should not, take into account the game being played, the current situation that the game is in, or who will benefit strategically from the procedure associated with a penalty. While it is tempting to try to “fix” game situations, the danger of missing a subtle detail or showing favoritism to a player (even unintentionally) makes it a bad idea.

So basically we judges ignore that can of worms =)
When a situation meets the requirements for a partial fix we apply it. When it doesn't we don't.
We shouldn't be influenced by the value of the fix.

Edited Toby Hazes (Oct. 24, 2013 12:02:03 AM)

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

I would email WotC R&D and tell them the Bestow rules, as an exception and a hack to the way the rules normally work, is confusing to many players and should be undone. Then there wouldn't be a problem here =D

=))

Guys, please keep the conversation on-topic.

Thanks.

Edited David de la Iglesia (Oct. 23, 2013 02:57:59 PM)

Originally posted by Nathaniel Lawrence:

Edit: To expand on my no fix reasoning - I don't believe this is a case of an object changing zones being placed into the wrong zone. From my perspective, since the Bestow mechanic is an exception to the common knowledge that targeted spells are countered by game rules if they don't have a legal target, Nick improperly removed his spell from the stack - it was not resolved and put into the wrong zone, it simply wasn't resolved at all.

I find this logic pretty convincing, he's improperly failing to resolve the spell, treating it as a normal enchantment, so it isn't just strictly changing zones incorrectly.

This looks like it fits the situation where the effect is controlled by one player (destruction), but the action is taken by the other (graveyard), and we should be issuing GRV warnings to both players.

Side thought: The structure of the rules surrounding bestow seem to be “whatever gotchas there are with enchantments, don't do that.” It seems the CR are pretty well in line with that. I idly wonder if there's going to be an IPG change or some kind of official clarification to extend that philosophy to cover side effects like this. I'm guessing not though…

Originally posted by Chris Nowak:

This looks like it fits the situation where the effect is controlled by one player (destruction), but the action is taken by the other (graveyard), and we should be issuing GRV warnings to both players.

I can't find anything illegal in destruction of the Minotaur with Hero's Downfall. Downfall resolved properly. Both Minotaur and Downfall were put in correct zones. Satyr is put into the graveyard clearly by N's train of thought, which led him to believe that a Bestow spell is countered on resolution because of its targets becoming illegal. It's all controlled by one player.

Originally posted by Eric Paré:

Stefano Ferrari
This allows me to put the Boon Satyr in the battlefield under Alex's control

Why would you give Nick's Boon Satyr to Alex?

Sorry Eric, my fault. I swapped the player names in my answer. :)
Hope I have now edited everything to match names and cards in my original answer.