Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
“As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then
their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to
destroy.”
– Christopher Dawson


On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Chris Nowak <
forum-6922-ec76@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> *Kenneth Woo*
>
> the answer I received then leads me to beleive that the creature will not
> return.
>
>
> Which creature are you referring to?
>
> Looking at your earlier post, the main difference I see is whether a
> creature is hitting the graveyard then moving to another zone, or whether
> it goes straight into exile because the yard was replaced by exile.
>
> But I may be missing your concern.
>

That's the difference this Personal Tutor is asking us to explain. When a
delayed triggered ability checks on something that moved from one zone to
another, it takes note of which “door” any object it's tracking left
through. When the trigger resolves, it checks through whichever door the
object left through to find it. It has a limit of one door per permanent;
if the object goes through another zone change after leaving the current
zone but before the ability can resolve, the link between the object and
the triggered ability is broken.

So here we have a card that left through the Exile door, because Whip of
Erebos closed the Graveyard door and sent it to exile instead. The
triggered ability sees that the creature left through the Exile door and
knows to look there.

In the previous thread, the ability saw the Underworld Cerberus leave
through the Graveyard door. Once it got there, it took a trip to Exile,
which broke the link. In short, the ability is “smart enough” to see how it
left, but not smart enough to follow any trips made after that.

I'd like to wrap this up tomorrow if we have a suitable pair of answers to either the original question + the follow-up or a single answer that preempts the need for the follow-up.

L2+ judges, feel free to get in here with suggestions.

Since nobody has come forward with a solution, I'm going to extend this
question until Monday. If you are going to be attending my seminar in DC,
you just might get some hints.

The sneaky thing about Oblivion Ring is that “exile” can refer to both an action and a zone. Compared to “sacrificed creature”, “exiled creature” sounds the same, referring to the action. But it actually refers to the zone. Like the earlier Boros Reckoner/Archangel of Thune example, this is something you just have to know and can't really deduce from the card text.

Not sure if I can say all that in a general upfront answer…

Edited Toby Hazes (Nov. 15, 2013 04:20:29 PM)

Let's see if I learned anything in your seminar on Friday night. For the record, I did not take notes. :-P

“Yes, the creatures will both come back. When the creature is sacrificed to RftU, the Whip replaces going to the graveyard with going into exile. Since RftU doesn't specify a specific zone, it just says ”the sacrificed card“, it will look for your creature in the first zone it was sent when sacrificed. If it hasn't moved from that zone, when the effect resolves it can find the creature in exile and return it. Undying specifies that the creature must be put into the graveyard, so if it is exiled instead, then Undying won't happen. So if a card specifies a zone, look in that zone, if it doesn't, like RftU, look in the first zone it went.”

“Well by saying ”the exiled card“ and not ”that card“ Oblivion Ring specifies a zone that the card needs to be in when its second trigger resolves. So Oblivion Rings looks for the card in exile and can't find it since it is in the command zone.”

Hopefully that is understandable and easy to remember for both players!

Edited Brian Brown (Nov. 18, 2013 10:02:26 AM)

Just for clarification, how does this apply to Banisher Priest, since it doesn't have refer to the card as either “that card” or “the exiled card”?

More generally, why should we interpret “exiled card” as referring to the zone, as opposed to being like “sacrificed card” which refers to the action?

(I agree with the explanation, but I'll play devil's advocate for a second here)

Banisher Priest doesn't need to talk about the card like that partly because of the nature of the effect (zone change with a duration) and partly because the entire effect is packed into a single ability. The “exiled card” construction is used to link abilities that for rules/templating reasons can't be a single ability. The reason the “exiled card” construction is interpreted as being just about the exile zone actually comes from a rule that specifically says so:

Originally posted by CR 607.2a:

If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with (this object), these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

Edited Michael Shiver (Nov. 18, 2013 11:39:45 AM)

Well, it's time to wrap up this edition of Personal Tutor.

This month we had the opportunity to teach the players about things they didn't even know they didn't know. This isn't an easy task. We had several very good answers to the initial question, but a lot more difficulty dealing with the follow-up. The real trick I wanted to demonstrate, though, is that you can answer the follow-up without ever being asked if (and this is no small “if”) you have the knowledge and awareness to think comprehensively about your ruling. The reason this is important is that, more often than not, the follow-up will not be asked. The players will just happily walk away with an incomplete and incorrect understanding of the rules.

Brian Brown was apparently paying close attention at my seminar because, in my opinion, he has proposed an excellent answer:

Originally posted by Brian Brown:

“Yes, the creatures will both come back. When the creature is sacrificed to RftU, the Whip replaces going to the graveyard with going into exile. Since RftU doesn't specify a specific zone, it just says ”the sacrificed card“, it will look for your creature in the first zone it was sent when sacrificed. If it hasn't moved from that zone, when the effect resolves it can find the creature in exile and return it. Undying specifies that the creature must be put into the graveyard, so if it is exiled instead, then Undying won't happen. So if a card specifies a zone, look in that zone, if it doesn't, like RftU, look in the first zone it went.”

Let's look at all the information that's been packed into this neat little paragraph:

• “the Whip replaces going to the graveyard with going to exile.” - This little snippet lets a player who knows what a “replacement effect” is key in on this hint. However, “replaces” is also a word that won't worry a less savvy player.
  
• “Since RftU doesn't specify a zone” - Here we are secretly pre-answering the Oblivion Ring follow-up. By thinking through the answer we give, we not only answer the first question, but get the second without going out of our way.
  
• “if it is exiled instead, the Undying won't happen” - Use of “instead” in this sentence is very good. It ties the explanation directly to the card text on Whip and potentially educates players to associate this word with replacement effects.
  
• “If a card specifies a zone, look in that zone; if it doesn't, look in the first zone it went.” - Here we have a very concise statement that sums up the beefier preceding explanation. It's memorable and snappy, and the players are decently likely to retain this even if the other details fade away.
  

Thanks to everyone who participated. Personal Tutor will be back next month to help you flick on those little light bulbs in your players' heads!