Abigail casts Master of Waves, with the ETB trigger on the stack Noddy casts Devour Flesh targeting Abigail. Abigail activates a Mutavault in response and sacrifices it then passes the turn. In Noddy's main phase a spectator notices that Abigail only gained two life from Devour Flesh. What do you do? What infraction/penalty/fix if any?

This issue occurred yesterday at a GPT and was handled, and since then I've spoken to multiple Judges and they all seem to have varying opinion on what should be issued and to which player.

Official answer soon, topic close until then.

Since it's Abigail's error, but Noddy's spell, we assess a GPE:GRV for both players.

Originally posted by IPG 2.5:

In a situation where the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by one player, but the illegal action is taken by
another player, both receive a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation.

The way you described the scenario, not much else has happened - and I think a lot of judges would be comfortable backing up to the point of the error - but that's really something you have to determine based on each unique set of circumstances.

If you don't back up, you leave everything as is. I know it can be tempting to “just fix it” when there's a “simple” life total issue, and everyone knows what it should be - but please, don't. It's not one of the the three exceptions listed, so we don't apply a partial fix here.

Thanks!

Both players are responsible for keeping track of both life totals, so is the act of miscounting one's own life total an illegal action by that player only?

Practically, Abigail might say “and I gain 2 life” but it is part of the resolution of Noddy's spell. If this is one of those situations where both players are using spindown counters for only their own life total at competitive, I think additional education is called for.

The only alternative to GRV for A is FtMGS; I'd like to hear Scott's or other higher-levels' thoughts on that.

Actually, you're only responsible for tracking your own life; the MTR does require all changes to be verbally announced, and that any discrepancies noticed must be pointed out immediately.

So, Abigail made the mistake (incorrect life total change) because of a spell or effect controlled by Noddy - that fits the criteria for IPG 2.5.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused on this scenario :/. While it's clear that if she announced the life total change it would be GRV, would it be CPV or GRV if Abigail didn't announce her new life total?

I ask as announcing life total changes IS communication and life totals ARE free information - so this scenario includes communication of free information - but the “announcement clause” is not included in the paragraph of the MTR (4.1) referred to by the IPG.

Nope, it's not CPV if you don't communicate - only when you violate the principles in the MTR's Player Communication section (4.1).

The GRV is in the incorrect life being lost, not in the correct communication of that incorrect number. It's a bit wonky to say it like that, but hopefully we won't stray off on the path of over-analyzing the semantics? :)
(Yeah, I know, the internet can make ANYTHING go wonky…)

d:^D

Thanks for clarifying this :>

I'd like to ask for clarification too. Do you mean that it's still GRV for Noddy even if he (she?) noted correct life total and Abigail failed to announce the change verbally (this scenerio doesn't say whether she did or not)? If that's the case, what exactly did he do wrong? After all, no rules require him to confirm his opponent's life total nor is he responsible for accurately reading notes from across the table.

Pawel, that's a different scenario.

If a player fails to announce a life total change, we educate them (it's not an infraction).

If one player makes a mistake with their life total, the other player notes the change correctly (all in the absence of communication), then we educate them both on communicating life totals - and hope that the discrepancy was pointed out as soon as it was noticed (or we've got an investigation to conduct).

(BTW, I may have said “lost” when I meant “gained”, up above. Or vice-versa. Or … well, it's really trivial, the philosophy I was trying to communicate is the same, no matter which direction the life total is going…)

d:^D

I'm still a bit confused.

1. I write down correct life total from Devour Flesh, you don't. You don't announce your life total change. We find out about discrepency later and call a judge. Update life totals, no infraction?

2. I write down incorrect life total from Devour Flesh and so do you. You don't announce your life total change. We find out that our life totals are wrong (typically with outside help but sometimes on our own) and call a judge. Double GRV, full backup or no change?

Now that I think about it, it's actually probably the same as I would have handled it. It just didn't occurr to me that the game state (after the fix) and penalty for my opponent might depend on what I've written on my personal piece of paper.

Then, what about this: I cast Devour Flesh, you say “sac Mutavault… gain 2”. I call a judge and say “he tried to gain incorrect amount of life”. Infraction or not?

I'm sorry if it feels like splitting hairs but life totals policy seems a bit blurry and I'd like to understand it better.

I think the confusion is coming from trying to apply my comments to a scenario that's materially different than the one I'm commenting on.

If a player fails to announce a life total change, we educate them (it's not an infraction).

That's a complete statement, and it applies only to a player not announcing a life total change - nothing more.

Originally posted by Pawel Kazimierczuk:

I write down correct life total from Devour Flesh, you don't. You don't announce your life total change. We find out about discrepency later and call a judge. Update life totals, no infraction?

Nope, that's different; if I gained or lost an incorrect amount of life, then it's a GRV for me. The fact that I also didn't announce my life total change is not an (additional) infraction. And if you wrote down the correct life total, I didn't announce my incorrect change, and you pointed out my mistake as soon as you noticed it - no infraction for you.

Originally posted by Pawel Kazimierczuk:

I write down incorrect life total from Devour Flesh and so do you. You don't announce … Double GRV, full backup or no change?

This sounds more like the original scenario; one player commits a GPE-GRV (wrong life total change) because of another player's effect (Devour Flesh). And yes, the phrasing in the IPG that I've quoted matches that scenario, so we assess a GRV for both players. Whether or not we back up is not relevant to the GRVs, so I'll ignore that; similarly, announcing the life total change, or not, doesn't change the fact that an infraction occurred, and both players were involved.

Better?

Oh, and - to be perfectly clear - we do NOT “update life totals”, whether or not there's an infraction.

However, if we determine that it's safe to back up, then life totals are one of the many things we would need to change as we back up (along with what was tapped or untapped, in hand, not yet drawn, etc., etc.) - but that's an element of backing up, not a fix in itself. Life total “corrections” are not a valid partial fix.

Ok, that makes sense except for one thing:

We have life discrepency because you made GRV (and I didn't notice it immediately, because you failed to announce new life total; typical in international events). We find out two turns later (for example when I attack again, very reasonable scenerio, happens relatively often) and it's impossible to make full backup. What now? There's GRV but full backup is too complex, partial fix is not allowed and I certainly can't leave the game going with two different life totals.

Pawel:

I'd treat this as you would any other walk-up life total discrepancy: hear both sides and rule the life totals as whichever is most convincing.

In this case, you'll be doing a mini-investigation that will reveal the GRV. You issue the GRV for incorrectly gaining 2 life instead of 3, and choose not to back up. As you pointed out, it's too complex a few turns later. You then make a decision about what the life totals are based on your investigation and the accounts from both players.

If the player who cast Devour Flesh recorded the life total correctly, I wouldn't issue him the GRV. There was a breakdown in communication somewhere, but there's no penalty for that. You can use this as an opportunity to remind players to announce and confirm life total changes. Then play on!