I have two quick questions regarding a couple situations I noticed while spectating at a competitive level event this last weekend.

The first regards The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Anthony controlled Tabernacle with a Nether Spirit in his graveyard with no other creatures in play. Anthony repeatedly referred to stacking his triggers so that Tabernacle would go on the stack last so that he wouldn't have to pay the upkeep cost for the Spirit.

My question is this: as a judge would you step in to explain how Tabernacle works or do you let the players continue playing with the false assumption that Tabernacle itself has a triggered ability?


The second situation occurred during the finals. Amanda forgot to draw at the start of her turn. She untapped, payed an upkeep cost, the moved directly into combat without drawing. At this point, Amanda realized she forgot to draw and talked to the judge sitting at the table with the players. The table judge called the head judge over. Amanda explained the situation and was backed up by Nathan who had also noticed. The head judge ruled that it was like a missed trigger and that too many actions had taken place. Amanda was not allowed to draw her card for the turn.

My understanding was that turn-based actions, such as untapping and drawing cards, could not be missed. I would understand if a turn or two had passed and confirmation would be sticky at best. Is my understanding incorrect? Should Amanda miss that draw?


Edited for clarification.

Edited Darrin Sisneros (Jan. 19, 2014 03:13:00 AM)

Hi,

For the first situation I don't think stepping in is advised or even necessary. There was no violation allowed to happen, the player is just misunderstanding his cards. If you felt it appropriate you could advise them after the game. I don't believe the way you described it constitutes CPV (when does it ever :))

For the second situation you are right, but it's not just turn based actions. Any draw or discard or failing to return cards to hand from another zone can just be applied when noticed, per the additional remedy under GPE - Game Rule Violation. A warning for AP for GRV and one for NAP for FTMGS likely applies based on your description of events.

Jack

Edited Jack Doyle (Jan. 19, 2014 05:36:55 AM)

Agree mostly with Jack above. One thing to add, though: Unless you actively see something that's a CPV being performed, I wouldn't step in. We don't want to be too overbearing with the players in general. Usually the players understand what's going on better than we do, and if we step in and start handing out random penalties when unneeded, it creates a lot of headaches for the staff and a lot of angst for the players.

For the second question, I think a lot of people don't seem to understand what a “trigger” is. A “trigger” is something that is an ability of a permanent card (usually, except in the case of delayed triggers which can be created by spells, and is always created by some card) and starts with the words “At”, “Whenever”, or “When”. If it doesn't satisfy both of these qualities, it's not a trigger. In the case stated, the beginning of turn draw is not created by any card's effect, and is hence not a trigger, although I believe CR phrases it with an “At”, implying that it is. In the case that additional education is required, ask if you can Stifle the beginning of turn draw. Most judges should know that the answer to this question is “no” (historical note: For a long time the answer to that question was “yes”; I believe the change was made around 7th or 8th edition).

Originally posted by CR 504.1:

First, the active player draws a card. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.

I recall a short time when the card draw for the turn did use the stack, but - as Lyle noted - that was changed a long time ago. But there's no mention of the trigger keywords (At/When).

In the first example, I would want very much to explain things - but I'd resist the temptation until after the match. After all, the opponent might see it as coaching (even if there's no way he could use that to his advantage).

For the second example:

MIPG 2.5 (GPE-GRV)
If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.

That's one of the three “partial fixes” that we can apply; it doesn't get much clearer than that. (And it could be applied a few turns later, if you're certain that a card wasn't drawn or discarded, etc.)

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

A “trigger” is something that is an ability of a permanent card (usually, except in the case of delayed triggers which can be created by spells, and is always created by some card) and starts with the words “At”, “Whenever”, or “When”. If it doesn't satisfy both of these qualities, it's not a trigger.

Not to unnecessarily complicate matters, but delayed triggers often have the “when”, “whenever”, “at” clauses at the end of the sentence.

Missing a draw for the turn used to fall under “Missed Trigger” in the IPG even after 7th/8th (a la Lyle) changed the rules. Missing this turn-based action was appropriately moved to GPE-GRV in the last few years (don't remember exactly when, only that it was a “Missed Trigger” when I was learning the ropes in 2009).

It seems the Head Judge had a lapse in knowledge, temporary or not. It happens!

Edited Evan Cherry (Jan. 19, 2014 06:39:56 PM)

Thank you all for your answers. The table judge did explain the Tabernacle interaction to both players after the match. As a spectator, I knew enough to say nothing, but I would have been tempted to explain how the card works during the match if I had been judging. Now, I know that unless an infraction is committed that education should wait until after the match/event.

I am also grateful for the clarification regarding the skipped draw step. I knew that the draw couldn't be skipped, but wasn't able to find the corresponding information in the official documents. I do have a follow up question. Since it would be a GPE-GRV for the AP, would the NAP receive the corresponding GPE-FtMGS?

They should. As a game rule to draw a card each turn, it can't be ignored. Failure to point it out to your opponent is FtMGS.

I think it would depend on the speed of Amanda's actions - did Nathan have enough time to stop her from attacking and point out her forgotten draw? If not, I would not give FtMGS.