The scenario here was discussed with me by Darlam Porto (L2 from Brazil too).

Adam and Noah are playing the last round of a PTQ, before the top 8.
The match ended 2x1, Adam won, but they do not informed the result, they are waiting the result of another match.
After the end of the other match, Adam and Noah changed their result in a way that both of them advanced to the top 8.

I know they cannot negotiate results with other tables. But what about waiting other matches to finish and then change their result that way?

I think that's what example A in 4.8 of the IPG is for.

Altering the results of a match after the match is over, is for when a player actually changes the result slip from what was actually signed.

Players could both agree to submit a result that is beneficial to both of them. I'd find it unusual for them to be able to wait more than a couple of minutes at a PTQ or higher event without a judge asking for them to submit a result entry slip.

Originally posted by Mark Brown:

I'd find it unusual for them to be able to wait more than a couple of minutes at a PTQ or higher event without a judge asking for them to submit a result entry slip.

Not nessessarily. If time has expired this would certainly be true, but if they finish early there is no reason they couldn't wait to fill it out. As long as it's done within the time remaining in the round I wouldn't have a problem.

If time has expired then I'd instruct them to fill the slip out.

Originally posted by Cris Plyler:

Mark Brown
I'd find it unusual for them to be able to wait more than a couple of minutes at a PTQ or higher event without a judge asking for them to submit a result entry slip.

Not nessessarily. If time has expired this would certainly be true, but if they finish early there is no reason they couldn't wait to fill it out. As long as it's done within the time remaining in the round I wouldn't have a problem.

If time has expired then I'd instruct them to fill the slip out.

So you guys are ok with the situation if there is enough time remaining in the round to watch other tables and look their results?

As long as the result slip has not been already filled out and the players stay at their seats…

MTR 2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches

If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always reported as 0-0-3.

5.2 Collusion and Bribery
…
Players may not reach an agreement in conjunction with other matches. Players can make use of information regarding match or game scores of other tables. However, players are not allowed to leave their seats during their match or go to great lengths to obtain this information.
…

Edited Milan Majerčík (Feb. 26, 2014 05:19:55 AM)

I would not want to allow or encourage this behavior. If players are done
with their games, they should be filling out their slip and getting it
handed in.

In the past, I've instructed such players that they need to make a decision
one way or another. That has always been sufficient to move them along.

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I got the sense that the allowance of using other match information was more a practical concern… did we really want someone to get DQ'd because they decided to ID after seeing they were going to make it to top-8 regardless?

But it's not a blanket license to change from Magic: The Gathering to Magic: The Tournament Standings.

Depending on the scenario, I think sitting there and waiting another match fits “going to great lengths”, and isn't something that should be allowed.

Asking them to fill the results out should get them going, and at that point isn't much different from how you'd handle things if they refuse to sign their slip in a timely manner after drawing a contentious match. Or so I imagine.

The first problem in this scenario is : they were playing and waiting. Second: the rules says they can't “leave their matches” while allow the players use the information from another tables.

So, what is the difference in a big tournament and a small one? In small tournaments like GPT you easily can get information from another tables. But I don't think, unless we have a unexpected scenario ( like 2 or 3 other tables receiving ID) , the players would have a real advantage here. Maybe in a huge tournament but they would have to go search for others tables matches. So I wouldn't give DQ because I think it wasn't manipulation from results.

Players are allowed to sit at their tables, without filling out their slip, so long as time is left in the round. Once time is up, they need to fill out the slips.

Players are allowed to observe their surroundings, so long as they aren't getting up without permission.

Therefore, players who are done with a match are allowed to sit there, waiting for the results of another match they can observe from their seat, before filling out their slip, so long as time hasn't expired.

This is a good example of behavior that is neither sporting nor unsporting. No, I don't really think they “should” be doing it. But, it is certainly allowed.

Originally posted by Fabrício Gomes:

So, what is the difference in a big tournament and a small one? In small tournaments like GPT you easily can get information from another tables. But I don't think, unless we have a unexpected scenario ( like 2 or 3 other tables receiving ID) , the players would have a real advantage here. Maybe in a huge tournament but they would have to go search for others tables matches. So I wouldn't give DQ because I think it wasn't manipulation from results.

Vaguely related to this: I recall hearing a while back that it was a best practice to randomize table order for the final round or two of Swiss at a GPT/IQ-level event to reduce the chance of bribery/collusion/slow play. I tried to do this last time I judged a GPT, but couldn't successfully assign tables randomly in WER (even after reviewing the documentation). Anyone know how to do this, or is it not possible in the current version (or is the best practice apocryphal?)?

Originally posted by John McCarthy:

Fabrício Gomes
So, what is the difference in a big tournament and a small one? In small tournaments like GPT you easily can get information from another tables. But I don't think, unless we have a unexpected scenario ( like 2 or 3 other tables receiving ID) , the players would have a real advantage here. Maybe in a huge tournament but they would have to go search for others tables matches. So I wouldn't give DQ because I think it wasn't manipulation from results.

Vaguely related to this: I recall hearing a while back that it was a best practice to randomize table order for the final round or two of Swiss at a GPT/IQ-level event to reduce the chance of bribery/collusion/slow play. I tried to do this last time I judged a GPT, but couldn't successfully assign tables randomly in WER (even after reviewing the documentation). Anyone know how to do this, or is it not possible in the current version (or is the best practice apocryphal?)?

When you create the new round there should be a dropdown box with options Standing and Random. Change this to Random if you want to do random tables.

Originally posted by Thomas Ralph:

When you create the new round there should be a dropdown box with options Standing and Random. Change this to Random if you want to do random tables.

Ah, there is is - I can't believe I didn't notice this before. Thank you!

Originally posted by Tom Wyliehart:

Players are allowed to sit at their tables, without filling out their slip, so long as time is left in the round. Once time is up, they need to fill out the slips.

Is there any written policy supporting this statement?

Conversely, is there any written policy supporting forcing the players to
fill in the slip before the time for the round is up while there are other
matches going on? That to me would be the irregular thing to do.


2014-03-03 18:17 GMT-05:00 David Záleský <