A store I often play FNM at usually has 24-28 people enter each Friday. An odd feature of tournaments with either 25 or 26 people is that in 7/8ths of the scenarios without unintentional draws, exactly 8 people will be at 3-1 or better going into the final round. This happens more often than not that the T8 will all draw in at around 10:30 PM, and be waiting for the rest of the room to finish before resuming play close to 11:30.

The players at the store have expressed interest in beginning the T8 tournament right away when it is clear cut like this, but the TO is uncertain how this would be feasible with WER.

Has anyone else had this issue and found a good way to handle it? Thanks!

You're problem is going to be seeding.

Sure, you know the eight players, but the ordering of the eight are determined by all the players in the event, not just the eight looking to speed up the event themselves.

In all honesty, your best bet is to run your FNM without a Top 8, and give out your prizes based on Swiss standings. If they really want to get out ASAP, give out prizes based on their match points after X rounds. (the store can hang onto 1st/2nd promos, and you can give out the two random promos earlier in the event)

If you run the event that way, those players looking to leave will be able to once they finish that final round.

The problem is, that even though you may be certain which players are going
to play in TOP 8 before the end of swiss, you cannot know at which place
they will finish, before their tie-breakers are also determined by results
of the matches which are still being played. Therefore you do not know the
pairings for TOP 8 and you cannot reasonably begin the TOP 8 without
guessing them.


2014-03-15 1:24 GMT+01:00 Glenn Fisher <forum-9014-b8a7@apps.magicjudges.org

In my idea, a regular REL event doesn't need a Top8. Those are for determining winner of “special prizes” of competitive REL events, for example byes at GPs, invitation at PTs and big cash prizes. In a FNM, you're here to play, have fun, win a couple of boosters, etc., not to compete to win an invitation or 4k$ in cash. The sealed products are, as far as I know, always awarded based on the Swiss Rounds's results anyway.

Am I right?

I would strongly discourage a Top 8 at FNM. Not only is it hard on the players adding an extra 3 rounds. It's hard on the judges and staff doing it on a weekly basis. Ours are 4 round Swiss, 1 pack per win, regardless of the number of players.

If it's going to be a draft top 8 so the seedings will be random anyway, then I don't see this as presenting a tournament operations problem. Constructed, it's an issue.

I agree with the others though; FNM is not a place for top 8s and it will rapidly become SMM.

Edited Thomas Ralph (March 16, 2014 02:36:29 PM)

Even if logistically you could start a top 8 before all of round 5 is done,
it sends a really bad message to the players who aren't doing as well that
their matches don't matter.

Kevin

Originally posted by Kevin Binswanger:

Even if logistically you could start a top 8 before all of round 5 is done,
it sends a really bad message to the players who aren't doing as well that
their matches don't matter.

That's a pretty good reason to not start the T8 matches before the rest of the Round 5 matches are done. You're basically indicating to the other players that their matches don't matter.

A solution you could use is to only have 4 rounds of swiss and then cut to the Top 8. Not a great solution because of those times where it won't produce a clean cut.

The magic is to not announce the numbers of rounds but just that you'll run
them till there is a clean cut to the top 8.

Clean is when everyone x-1 or better is in the top 8.

it's pretty unreasonable not to announce the number of rounds at the
beginning of the tournament.

I've seen a room full of people at a week night event be really really
happy that there was a chance that the 2^n+1 person didn't guarantee them
having an extra round to play.

Originally posted by Sam Sherman:

it's pretty unreasonable not to announce the number of rounds at the
beginning of the tournament.

Perhaps, perhaps not. And the MTR does allow it as long as objective criteria are announced before the start of the event.

Given that people don't know if they'll make Top 8, they already have no idea what time they'll be finishing - so there's no harm in the indeterminate number of rounds.

(That was speaking solely in terms of the “Swiss till clear top 8, then cut” option. Personally I think the indeterminate event length Top 8 gives is another reason not to have a Top 8 at FNM.)

There's definitely a strong argument for NOT having a Top 8, and while that's a decision that the TO needs to make, this may be an opportunity to run a more competitive tournament at another time.

Have you spoken with your TO about running another event, at a different time? This can help the owner grow the player base by appealing to different types of players, this can help you as a judge in reinforcing the style of judging needed at different types of events, and this can help players by educating them on the different expectations that higher caliber events will bring to their level of play.

Update: Since I made the initial post, we've had this situation come up twice more, and were able to cut the final round of swiss.

What happened in each case was the R5 pairings were posted, and as is frequently the case, exactly 8 players had 9+ points, with the remaining players at 0-6 points. The T8 quickly agreed to draw in, then the TO made an announcement like “Does anyone want to play out Round 5, or would you rather do the random prizes now?” It was quickly unanimous that everyone in the room was fine skipping the last round. The TO unpaired the last round, deleted it, and cut to T8.

I would recommend that course of action to anyone else in a similar situation.

A couple notes:
* It turns out that EVERYONE staying around with an X-2 record or worse was just doing so for a chance at the random prizes. Our store raffles off a few packs and snack cards in addition to the FNM promos. These players were happy to not have to play another round.

* Several players mentioned Top 8 playoffs being unhealthy at FNMs. Your playerbase may vary, but at both of my local stores, the T8 is a source of pride and excitement. For many players, the biggest “reward” for going 3-1-1 at FNM is that mini-GP experience of playing against other good decks with reasonable prizes on the line. It's the only regular opportunity there is to play against that level of competition. Of course Bellingham is a college town - in an environment with mostly middle schoolers with bedtimes it might be a different story.