I see no penalty, but I'd advise the player that a sideboard of 15 Plains (or mountains or forests etc.)would have the same effect and appear less shifty to an outsider.

I think we're just about all in agreement that there is no infraction to be issued, but we have to keep in mind that the appearance of legitimacy and fairness is as important as actual legitimate and fairness. If a spectator observes someone shuffling something non-Magic into his or her deck, then that may raise concerns. If they then see a judge giving a blessing to a player doing this, well then we may have an issue.

Originally posted by Jack Hesse:

The infraction for presenting a sideboard without legal cards in it would fall under D/DLP:

The contents of the presented deck and sideboard do not match the decklist registered.

But actually, in this case, it does match. The sideboard has zero cards, and zero cards have been found. Otherwise we would have to start giving Game Losses left and right for every player that has tokens stored in their deckbox along with their sideboards when presenting.

Note: “Card”, of course, means “Magic Card”.

Originally posted by Michael Shiver:

Talin Salway
I actually would be a bit worried about a player presenting a fake sideboard, face down, if their opponent asks.

The player isn't presenting a sideboard, he's handing his opponent a pile of non-Magic cards. If there's no sideboard to present then not presenting one when asked shouldn't be a problem.

But he is misrepresenting the number of cards in his sideboard to his opponent. I see it as akin to when a player asks how many cards the other has in his hand, and he fans his 4 cards in such as way for his opponent that it looks like 3.
(Akin in philosophy, not in infraction. I don't think the sideboard counts as a game zone?)

Edited Toby Hazes (April 25, 2014 03:18:00 AM)

I'm with Toby on this.
The fact that he uses these blank cards to fake a sideboarding action also “informs” the opponent he has more than 1 sideboard card.

In all honesty if a player wants to do this, advice him to fill in 15 basic lands of a type he is not using for ease of “fooling his opponent”. Since it's REL you can not change this anymore at this point and you shouldn't but I would hint him to do this the next time. It will prevent confusion and prevent him ever getting into trouble for marked cards, incorrect sideboard or incorrect deck and what not…

I don't see any issue here at all.

Between games, there are no zones, there's no free, derived, or hidden information, and there's no opportunity for deck/decklist problems. In other words, there are no rules whatsoever that govern what you can or cannot do to your deck between games, or what you can or cannot tell your opponent about your deck. Only when you present your deck to your opponent for shuffling are you making a statement that the rules care about. But before that…

Yes, he is suggesting that he has more sideboard cards than he actually has, but so what? I don't see any rule that forbids him to bullshit about the contents or size or any other feature of his deck between games.

I would still advise him to use 15 basics for the next tournament, because that will avoid any potential issues with “if my opponent asks about my sideboard, I will freely admit that I have none” and how much a judge might be inclined, or disinclined, to believe that. But for the current tournament - no rules broken, no need to tell him to change his behavior. Carry on, nothing to see here.

If the player never presents the cards as a sideboard but just shuffles them in and take them out or at the start of the game asked about it/can his opponent count it he says something akin to “I don't have one” I don't have an issue. Yes he should present his sideboard at the start of each match but if we call him on this we need to with every player who doesn't.

Originally posted by Niki Lin:

The fact that he uses these blank cards to fake a sideboarding action also “informs” the opponent he has more than 1 sideboard card.

I disagree with this bit. If all I'm doing is quietly shuffling some non-cards (in the CR definition of the word ‘card’) into my deck and taking them out again I am not doing anything illegal. If my opponent wishes to draw the (incorrect) conclusion that I have a sideboard from seeing me do this, that's on them.

If my opponent asks me to present my sideboard, and I put a pile of non-cards in front of him, I'm claiming that these items are my sideboard which is not true, because I don't have a sideboard.

Basically the scenario as described in the OP where the player will shuffle non-cards into his deck, but will tell his opponent the truth if asked is exactly what I find legal.

I think it may be time to take a step back and consider whether this topic is really worth all this effort to analyze.

In the incredibly unlikely event that anyone ever wants to try this at Comp REL, he or she will come ask a judge at the start of the day. That interaction will go down one of three ways:
1. The judge will approve as long as the player doesn't actually lie about his actual SB size, and it will be fine.
2. The judge will say “no,” the player won't do it, and it will be fine.
3. The judge will suggest using off-color basics instead, and it will be fine.

So this situation is probably never going to happen, and it will turn out fine almost regardless of what you do. It's not worth nitpicking.

I was talking about these with another Judge, trying to find any illegal thing about doing these, there are few questions that u as judge must do urself.
If the oponent of player who is using dummy sideboard ask you how many cards has that player, what do you answer to him?
Is doing something illegal the player who is using dummy sideboard; maybe u think that is lying about the number of cards in his sideboard, maybe u think he can't lie in the number of legal cards in that place. The rule which could be close enough to this is GPE-GRV but, that point to a Game Zone and the Sideboard isn't a game zone after all, so, the player, finally, isn't doing anything illegal.

Originally posted by Nick Rutkowski:

Intentionally mis-representing the number of objects in a zone? While this leads down the DQ path I do not feel that it meets all the requirements of a DQ. But it raises some flags.

what advantage is to be gained by masking whether or not a player sideboards?

There is a small advantage, some will argue. I don't think so.

In this case the player obviously thinks that there is an advantage, which is why he's doing this in the first place.

I would equate this to somebody shuffling their deck in a cumbersome and suspicious way. I wouldn't even begin to entertain the argument “there's no purpose - it does the exact same thing as a normal shuffle” when the option to do a normal shuffle was open, easier, and ignored.

I'm not saying that what the player is doing is necessarily wrong, but I'd say it passes the “trying to gain and advantage” test with flying colors.

Originally posted by Anniek Van der Peijl:

If my opponent asks me to present my sideboard, and I put a pile of non-cards in front of him, I'm claiming that these items are my sideboard which is not true, because I don't have a sideboard.

But you are presenting your sideboard, plus your tokens. If I have 15 cards in my sideboard and 15 tokens, and my opponent asks to see my sideboard, and I pull out 30 sleeved cards, I'm committing no penalty. The opponent has no right to know the identity of those cards nor tokens. If they ask a judge, the judge can confirm that I have a sideboard of no more than 15 cards, and that the remainder are tokens.

If you say, “This is my 15-card sideboard,” you are lying. If they ask to see your sideboard, and you present your full sideboard plus tokens, you are committing no penalty. It's no worse than answering “How many cards do you have?” by holding up your hand clearly, but not answering verbally.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

I think it may be time to take a step back and consider whether this topic is really worth all this effort to analyze.

In the incredibly unlikely event that anyone ever wants to try this at Comp REL, he or she will come ask a judge at the start of the day. That interaction will go down one of three ways:
1. The judge will approve as long as the player doesn't actually lie about his actual SB size, and it will be fine.
2. The judge will say “no,” the player won't do it, and it will be fine.
3. The judge will suggest using off-color basics instead, and it will be fine.

So this situation is probably never going to happen, and it will turn out fine almost regardless of what you do. It's not worth nitpicking.

This, except that I hope judges will select 3 rather than 2 in the interest of customer service.

Originally posted by Steve Guillerm:

But you are presenting your sideboard, plus your tokens. If I have 15 cards in my sideboard and 15 tokens, and my opponent asks to see my sideboard, and I pull out 30 sleeved cards, I'm committing no penalty. The opponent has no right to know the identity of those cards nor tokens. If they ask a judge, the judge can confirm that I have a sideboard of no more than 15 cards, and that the remainder are tokens.

If you say, “This is my 15-card sideboard,” you are lying. If they ask to see your sideboard, and you present your full sideboard plus tokens, you are committing no penalty. It's no worse than answering “How many cards do you have?” by holding up your hand clearly, but not answering verbally.

From the other thread on sideboards going on right now:

MTR
Opponents may count the number of cards in their opponent’s sideboard at any time. Players are not required to reveal how many cards they have swapped from their main deck to their sideboard.

If you present face-down sideboard and tokens at once, you are making it impossible for me to count the number of cards in your sideboard. This violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the tournament rules.

Can't check right now, but arent you supposed to sleeve your Tokens in a differently than your 75? Or is that just a really good ‘suggestion’?

Originally posted by Steve Guillerm:

But you are presenting your sideboard, plus your tokens. If I have 15 cards in my sideboard and 15 tokens, and my opponent asks to see my sideboard, and I pull out 30 sleeved cards, I'm committing no penalty. The opponent has no right to know the identity of those cards nor tokens.

But he has the right to know the amount, which you deliberately obscure.

Originally posted by Steve Guillerm:

If they ask a judge, the judge can confirm that I have a sideboard of no more than 15 cards, and that the remainder are tokens.

From an earlier tread about Sylvan Library, the players should at all times be able to verify the game state without a judge. “They can ask a judge to confirm” doesn't work.

Originally posted by Steve Guillerm:

If you say, “This is my 15-card sideboard,” you are lying. If they ask to see your sideboard, and you present your full sideboard plus tokens, you are committing no penalty. It's no worse than answering “How many cards do you have?” by holding up your hand clearly, but not answering verbally.

It is worse, as I said earlier I see it akin to holding up your hand of 4 cards in such a way that it looks like 3 cards.

Edited Toby Hazes (April 30, 2014 04:25:58 PM)