Thanks for the info and input.

Similar and maybe already discussed a hundred times:
Why do we allow a player who uses a Doomblade on a black creature to untap and take it back from the stack into his hand? The cast went alright up until the point he indicated an illegal target, right?

This discussion has sparked a lot of discussion already among a couple of PTQ grinders that I know. They like the fact that the Chimera example is only backed up until the point where the error is made. In regards to the the Doomblade scenario, they reason, that keeping the logic of the Chimera example, the player should be forced to make a bad decision (killing a non-black creature, that is not on first on the priority line of “needed to be removed”).

The only real difference that I could see is that we see a cast as “one action” (speculation of my part?). Can anybody explain me what the difference is in backing up these two scenarios were something went wrong “halfway”.

It makes me a bit puzzled to be honest, players even more…

Casting needs to be backed up entirely when there's a problem casting the spell–'locking in' that spell and forcing the player to choose another target isn't a coherent way to handle the problem. How would you back up to the point of the error when a player tries to play Doom Blade on a black creature but there are no other legal targets? Or for that matter, when a player tries to play Supreme Verdict without paying any mana?

(I mean, the technical answer is that the CR say to back up the casting entirely so that's what we do, as opposed to the perfectly legal Perplexing Chimera play. Backing up partially isn't a good alternative though, regardless of what the CR say.)

Edited Bradley Morin (April 30, 2014 10:52:18 AM)

As a player who has a tendency to play fairly competitively at times, it is
very easy to see why PTQ grinders would like this fix. After all, it
punishes the misplay very heavily and, in their mind, sets a precedent to
punish other types of errors heavily as well.

To my mind, however, that is not the point of the fix. It is merely a side
effect of it, one that ends up being fairly unfortunate in this situation
but not the point of the fix at all.

To me, the clearest difference between the two scenarios is the Perplexing
Chimera example is going work during the resolution of a legally triggered
ability. We're in the middle of the resolution, not during the
announcement. Casting a Doom Blade on a
black/hexproof/shroud/pro-black/etc. creature is an illegal announcement,
and the Comp. Rules indicate that if the steps of an announcement of a
spell or ability cannot be completed, the entire announcement is reversed.
Untapping the lands is our concession to the way players play the game.
Personally, I tend to always tap lands during the casting of spells rather
than before, but not all players do that. In fact, I would suggest that
most players do not. Therefore, we as judges make a concession to the
generally accepted method of play and untap the lands.

Originally posted by Niki Lin:

Why do we allow a player who uses a Doomblade on a black creature to untap and take it back from the stack into his hand? The cast went alright up until the point he indicated an illegal target, right?

The only real difference that I could see is that we see a cast as “one action” (speculation of my part?). Can anybody explain me what the difference is in backing up these two scenarios were something went wrong “halfway”.

You can't cast Doom Blade without specifying a legal target. So if a player has done so, we have to rewind to before the spell was cast, because the entire casting of the spell was illegal.

In this case, using the Chimera's triggered ability to change control of the spell is perfectly legal, so we don't back up that part. Changing the target however, (a “may” ability) is, in this case, illegal. So we have to back that part up.

It is basically 2 actions, one of which is getting backed up, whereas the casting of Doom Blade is only a single action, which was illegal.

Question: Does backing up even matter? Since they switched control of the creatures, wouldn't Perplexing Chimera cease to be an attacking or blocking creature? In that case, wouldn't the spell fail due to an illegal target anyway? I am taking for granted that only Perplexing Chimera attacked and no creatures blocked since it was the only creature mentioned for that combat phase. With no other legal targets, the target would remain Chimera and the spell would fail since it has a now illegal target.

Could we not simply explain that and let them move on with the game?

Is the fact that “change the target” is a separate sentence from “gain control…” the key here? Does the ruling change if it's one sentence?

Originally posted by Darrin Sisneros:

Question: Does backing up even matter? Since they switched control of the creatures, wouldn't Perplexing Chimera cease to be an attacking or blocking creature? In that case, wouldn't the spell fail due to an illegal target anyway? I am taking for granted that only Perplexing Chimera attacked and no creatures blocked since it was the only creature mentioned for that combat phase. With no other legal targets, the target would remain Chimera and the spell would fail since it has a now illegal target.

Could we not simply explain that and let them move on with the game?

You have to back up some because the player announced an illegal target (Grizzly Bears)when taking control of the Divine Verdict. The argument is regarding how far the rewind is supposed to go.

I think the key for this is that exchanging control is legal, changing the target to Grizzly Bears is not but the ability doesn't require you to change targets. This isn't like casting a spell or activating an ability with an illegal target where the entire spell/ability on the stack is illegal. The Perplexing Chimera trigger is totally legal, you just cannot choose to retarget the spell once you have gained control of it since there are no legal targets(this happens as a separate action). Think of it like a player casting Redirect. They don't announce the new targets until Redirect has resolved. The way the entire sequence actually is supposed to play out(if everything is done exactly as the rules define) is:

1. NAP casts Divine Verdict
2. Perplexing Chimera triggers. This goes on the stack.
3. NAP has no response. Perplexing Chimera trigger resolves.
4. AP chooses to exchange control. NAP gains control of Perplexing Chimera. AP gains control of Divine Verdict.
5. AP attempts to change the target of Divine Verdict, naming Grizzly Bears.

The violation occurs in #5. We only back up to #5.. Everything else has already resolved and is legal.

Edited Alan Dreher (May 1, 2014 02:36:15 AM)

alan, AP doesn't choose whether to exchange control or not with the
chimera's ability until that ability starts resolving.

Originally posted by Sam Sherman:

alan, AP doesn't choose whether to exchange control or not with the
chimera's ability until that ability starts resolving.

Yes, you are right. Still, the changing of the target is separate from exchanging control.

For me, the key to this problem is this rule:

717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can’t legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire
action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects
apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it
came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal
play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on
another mana ability that wasn’t reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a
library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be
shuffled.

combined with IPG 2.5:

judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the error. Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error

The second quote is more general and tells us how to solve every possible error. There is nothing about returning mana payments and returning cards with illegal targets to hand. The only rules which allows us to do that, is CR 717.1. So, let's see what this rule lets us do:

• the entire action is reversed
  
• any payments already made are canceled
  
• If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from
  
• The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play
  

Now, let's analyse the 2 presented situation. Let's start with the Doom Blade scenario. These are the actions taken while illegally casting Doom Blade:
1. Tap to lands to get mana.
2. Announce Doom Blade
3. Target creature with hexproof. <– Illegal action
4. Remove mana from mana pool in order to pay for Doom Blade

When judge is called and he determines that an illegal action was taken, he starts backing it up. Using IPG 2.5 he backs up to the point of error, which means that steps 4 and 3 are undone.
But we still have 2 perfectly legal actions: Tapping lands and announcing Doom Blade.
We can undo action 2 - announcing Doom Blade - because of CR 717.1 (If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from) and action 1 - tapping lands - too (The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play)

This procedure leaves us with fully backed up situation.

Now let's look to perplexing chimera scenario (I have listed not only actions, but anything important):
1. Opponent casts spell.
2. Chimera triggers.
3. Priority passes.
4. Chimera begins to resolve.
5. Player chooses whether to exchange control.
6. Player chooses whether and how to change the targets. <– Illegal action

IPG 2.5 allows us to back up step 6, but there is no rule which allows us to back up step 5, which means that the unfortunate player is stucked with his (probably bad) decission to exchange control).

I hope this helps.

Originally posted by David Záleský:

These are the actions taken while illegally casting Doom Blade:
1. Tap to lands to get mana.
2. Announce Doom Blade
3. Target creature with hexproof. <– Illegal action
4. Remove mana from mana pool in order to pay for Doom Blade

I see what you are getting at, but presented like this I think you can back up to step 2 instead of step 1 without problems. Step 1 was just tapping lands to float mana; not an illegal action. It's different if the player tapped those lands for mana during the casting of the Doom Blade. I could be convinced that this is just out-of-order sequencing, though, since the player obviously tapped the lands to pay for the Doom Blade (and many players have been raised on stories of people losing the Pro Tour finals for announcing spells without first tapping mana).

But what constitutes an “action”? MCR 717.1 names “casting a spell” as an example of an illegal action, not “choosing targets”. It seems intuitive to me that in the Perplexing Chimera scenario, “resolving a trigger” is the action, and the trigger as a whole includes both exchanging control and changing the target.

In what other cases do you back up only part of the resolution of a spell or ability? Suppose I'm at 1 life and cast Arc Trail targeting the only creature on the battlefield; your Bear Cub (for 2), and you (for 1). Then you point to your Leyline of Sanctity. Targeting the Bear Cub was legal, so do we now back up to the point where I am forced to kill myself?

I did fulltext seach on CR and found 345 instances of word action. I looked
through almost 200 of them and I haven't found any single definition (then
is started being boring, so I stopped :) ).

Of the paragraphs I read, this one seemed to be most related to the current
situation:

304.2. When an instant spell resolves, the actions stated in its
rules text are followed. Then it’s put into
its owner’s graveyard.

This implies that resolution of (instant) spells and abilities
(analogically) can be broken down to multiple actions which are treated
individually for the purposes of rule 717.


For me, the main difference between Arc Trail and Chimera is, that Arc
Trail is spell, while Chimera is an ability. And also, the choices for Arc
Trail (and Doom Blade, also) are made durin casting, while in Chimera
situation, it's during resolution.

When casting spells, there might be (and often are) complications with
casting, which might result in impossibility of succesfully casting it. In
order to prevent this, rule 717 was created. This covers situations like
casting Doom Blade on a black creature when there are no other creatures on
the battlefied, which leaves us with legally announced and paid Doom Blade
with no possibility of succesful casting. The philosophy behind the remedy
(in my opinion) is, that the remedy should not differ based on game state
(When there are no creatures, the Doom Blade would be backed up, but if he
controls a nonblack creature, Doom Blade would have to target it if this
rule would not allow full backup).

But triggered abilities are designed in such way, that it should not be
possible to arrive to a moment when putting the ability on stack would be
impossible (in this case the ability simple ceases to trigger), or that it
can't properly resolve (in is simply countered or removed from the stack).
That's why it doesn't need a special treatment, because general rules
already covers all and simple backup to the point of error solves every
possible problem.


2014-05-01 12:12 GMT+02:00 Jochem van 't Hull <

I see what you are getting at, but presented like this I think you can back up to step 2 instead of step 1 without problems. Step 1 was just tapping lands to float mana; not an illegal action. It's different if the player tapped those lands for mana during the casting of the Doom Blade.

Recently there have been a discussion about this here. The quintessence is we do let players untap they'r mana for spells they are casting and paying in advance if we rewind, so i'm convinced to say backing up to Step 1 is more appropriate.

(two Edits for getting rid of all the grammatical errors :-( )

Edited Auzmyn Oberweger (May 1, 2014 07:00:58 AM)

Originally posted by Jochem van 't Hull:

David Záleský
These are the actions taken while illegally casting Doom Blade:
1. Tap to lands to get mana.
2. Announce Doom Blade
3. Target creature with hexproof. <– Illegal action
4. Remove mana from mana pool in order to pay for Doom Blade

I see what you are getting at, but presented like this I think you can back up to step 2 instead of step 1 without problems. Step 1 was just tapping lands to float mana; not an illegal action. It's different if the player tapped those lands for mana during the casting of the Doom Blade. I could be convinced that this is just out-of-order sequencing, though, since the player obviously tapped the lands to pay for the Doom Blade (and many players have been raised on stories of people losing the Pro Tour finals for announcing spells without first tapping mana).

But what constitutes an “action”? MCR 717.1 names “casting a spell” as an example of an illegal action, not “choosing targets”. It seems intuitive to me that in the Perplexing Chimera scenario, “resolving a trigger” is the action, and the trigger as a whole includes both exchanging control and changing the target.

In what other cases do you back up only part of the resolution of a spell or ability? Suppose I'm at 1 life and cast Arc Trail targeting the only creature on the battlefield; your Bear Cub (for 2), and you (for 1). Then you point to your Leyline of Sanctity. Targeting the Bear Cub was legal, so do we now back up to the point where I am forced to kill myself?

The backup for casting spells (and activating abilities, declaring attackers, declaring blockers) is in the CR:

601.2.

If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.

So we explicitly back up all the way. Other things, like a triggered ability, we back up only up to the illegal action.

Edited Toby Hazes (May 1, 2014 08:24:51 AM)

Originally posted by Alan Dreher:

Darrin Sisneros
Question: Does backing up even matter? Since they switched control of the creatures, wouldn't Perplexing Chimera cease to be an attacking or blocking creature? In that case, wouldn't the spell fail due to an illegal target anyway? I am taking for granted that only Perplexing Chimera attacked and no creatures blocked since it was the only creature mentioned for that combat phase. With no other legal targets, the target would remain Chimera and the spell would fail since it has a now illegal target.

Could we not simply explain that and let them move on with the game?

You have to back up some because the player announced an illegal target (Grizzly Bears)when taking control of the Divine Verdict. The argument is regarding how far the rewind is supposed to go.

I think the key for this is that exchanging control is legal, changing the target to Grizzly Bears is not but the ability doesn't require you to change targets. This isn't like casting a spell or activating an ability with an illegal target where the entire spell/ability on the stack is illegal. The Perplexing Chimera trigger is totally legal, you just cannot choose to retarget the spell once you have gained control of it since there are no legal targets(this happens as a separate action). Think of it like a player casting Redirect. They don't announce the new targets until Redirect has resolved. The way the entire sequence actually is supposed to play out(if everything is done exactly as the rules define) is:

1. NAP casts Divine Verdict
2. Perplexing Chimera triggers. This goes on the stack.
3. NAP has no response. Perplexing Chimera trigger resolves.
4. AP chooses to exchange control. NAP gains control of Perplexing Chimera. AP gains control of Divine Verdict.
5. AP attempts to change the target of Divine Verdict, naming Grizzly Bears.

The violation occurs in #5. We only back up to #5.. Everything else has already resolved and is legal.

1. I understand what you're saying. What I am saying is that no other actions have occurred since the announcement to change targets. The new chosen target is illegal, therefore no game actions can occur. However, there are currently no legal targets. Even the original target of Chimera is now illegal since it changed controllers and is no longer attacking. No legal targets means the spell doesn't resolve anyway. Why then should we back up at all?

2. My understanding is that changing control of Chimera, taking control of Divine Verdict and choosing the new targets are all part of resolving Chimera's trigger. The trigger doesn't resolve before targets are changed. Therefore, we can't back up to number 5 since that actually all takes place as part of number 3. I think this falls in line with Scott's Doom Blade example. We either back up the trigger completely or not at all. So either we leave the game state as is, with the Divine Verdict on an illegal target or we back it up to the trigger being placed on the stack.