In Competitive REL, what is the policy on this?

Let's say a player who plays 4 Pack Rat in his deck,
keeps another 4 in his deck box, in a different color sleeve.

How should we handle this?

Is it considered TE-D/DLP?

I once allowed a player to do exactly this at a Reg REL event. My argument to justify this is: a) because of the sleeves they won't be confused with the actual card rats, and b) I didn't find a rule that says he can't.

I did advise him to explain the situation to each opponent the first time one of these tokens is created while playing that opponent, to avoid confusion.

IPG 3.5: Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard.

Let's agree that those extra Pack Rats are conceivably playable in a deck that's already playing 4 of them, so yes, this is a D/DL. The different color sleeves doesn't change this, as people can resleeve SB cards at will.

Even at Regular, we do not allow this. The rule is very easy: the total number of Pack Rats in the combined MD and SB can not be greater than 4, and I assume this was the case in Ernst's event.

What I do allow: a player in Legacy with a Bridge from Below deck who kept a pile of 20 Beta Scathe Zombies in his deckbox with his SB. That crosses the line of conceivably playable for me ^^

I have to wonder, then, how Pack Rat cards to be used as tokens can
conceivably be used to gain advantage by resleeving. Using five or more
Rats is illegal, so I would not say they're conceivably part of his 75.

Especially since his actual 75 are right there, and the Rats' differently
coloured sleeves make it quite clear what their purpose is.

Erik, the advantage can be easily gained when the player resleeves his “token-”rats during sideboarding and simply plays 6 or 7 in the second game without his oppoenent having a chance to see this. The only chance for us to somehow prevent such behaviour is to completely ban cards that don't belong to the deck or SB from the table.

I see, so it's cheating prevention.

Maybe I should open another thread for this then, but it seems similar
enough to this case to not warrant another. What if a player has four
copies of Delver of Secrets in his deckbox in transparent sleeves that
he claims to use when he plays the Delvers in his deck (opaque sleeves, not
the checklist card)?

Erik, that's the exact same problem.
The player could switch other cards for these Delvers while sideboarding
and have 8 Delvers in his deck after SB.

-R.


2014-06-07 10:07 GMT+02:00 Erik Kan <forum-10527-d02b@apps.magicjudges.org>:

I did the delver thing at a GP Main event after checking with the head judge once…

Except the Delver situation is explicitly allowed by current policy. Quoting from the IPG, section 3.5 - “Tournament Error - Deck/Decklist Problem:”

If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:

• Promotional cards that have been handed out as part of the tournament.
• Double-faced cards represented by checklist cards in the deck.
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck.

These cards must not be sleeved in the same way as cards in the main deck and/or sideboard.

So Delver of Secrets in different sleeves are fine. Pack Rats in different sleeves, however, are not covered by the above; allowing ones in different sleeves to be used as tokens would be considered a deviation from the IPG.

The IPG has a bit about DFCs in the DLP section:

Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:

• …
  
• …
  
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck.
  

These cards must not be sleeved in the same way as cards in the main deck and/or sideboard.

Sorry guys, but I'm not finding any logic in leting have extra Delvers and not leting have extra pack rats. Personally, I think I wouldn't allow any of them, in spite of the IPG.

Edited Gimena Pombo (June 7, 2014 06:05:14 AM)

I once faced this in a tournament. Even though what player had been doing
before all matches is puting the cards (face down) in a separate pile and
saying his opponent that those were only tokens, not part of the deck nor
the sideboard.
As long as the opponent can identify at all moment those tokens (with
different sleeves from cards in main deck or sideboard) I'd find no problem
at all.


2014-06-07 11:05 GMT+02:00 Gimena Pombo <

Originally posted by Gimena Pombo:

Sorry guys, but I'm not finding any logic in leting have extra Delvers and not leting have extra pack rats. Personally, I think I wouldn't allow any of them, in spite of the IPG.

The logic is that taking cards out if sleeves and flipping them is annoying and time consuming. And if you forget to put them back you'll have backwards cards which is irritating.

While you may not agree with the IPG on this particular point, you would be doing your players a great disservice by deviating from clearly written rules because you disagree with them. You also undermine yourself - how can the players trust your rulings if they feel you rule by feelings over the actual rules?

I couldn't agree more Mark, taking cards out if sleeves and flipping them is annoying and time consuming, besides, as Albert says, each opponent should be able to identify at all moment those tokens. With these arguments now I understand the purpose of the exception. Thank you guys!!! :)

I could see an argument to allow the extra pack rats to be kept as tokens because they can't conceivably be played in that player's deck, they already have 4 in the deck, so they couldn't play the extras. Not sure I would agree with this argument, but if I were a player trying to avoid a GL for this, I would bring it up. Also, as a judge, would you allow a player to keep their extra pack rats in a separate box and bring them out when they need to use them as tokens?

Additionally, I would allow this at Regular REL because the IPG only applies at competative and I've never seen a judge ask a player to not keep his/her deck in a box with other cards, which is very common among casual/FNM players.