Hello everyone,

I have a question about additional remedy of Missed Trigger with Obzedat.

IPG2.1 Missed Trigger - Additional Remedy (select review)

If the triggered ability is a delayed triggered ability
that changes the zone of an object, resolve it.
For these two types of abilities, the opponent chooses
whether to resolve the ability the next time a player would get priority
or when a player would get priority at the start of the next phase.

1)
NAP forgot to return Obzedat to the battlefield.
At the next AP's turn, they recognized Obzedat and called a judge.
AP has Stifle in her hand, and chose to return Obzedat now.

According to IPG, an additional remedy is “RESOLVE it”.(not “put on stack”.)
So, it seems that AP has no chance to stifle Obzedat's forgotten triggered ability.
Is this right?

2)
NAP forgot to return Obzedat to the battlefield.
At the next AP's turn, AP cast Wrath of God.
Before resolving it, they recognized Obzedat and called a judge.
AP chose to return Obzedat now because he wanted to destroy it by Wrath of God.

The point is that NAP has priority since AP didn't announce to retain it.(MTR4.2)
According to IPG, an additional remedy is
“resolve the ability the next time a player would GET priority”.(not “have”.)
When NAP passes priority, Wrath of god is resolved before AP gets priority.
So, it seems that Obzedat returns to the battlefield after Wrath of God being resolved.
Is this right?

I'm waiting for your answer. Thank you.

Edited Asuka Nagashima (June 7, 2014 09:05:46 AM)

1) Yes

“resolve the ability the next time a player would GET priority”

According to that, I believe this is what happens:
1. NAP has priority
2. Judge gets called
3. NAP passes priority
4. AP would get priority now, so trigger is resolved
5. Wrath of God resolves, destroying Obzedat

Hope I helped.


2014-06-07 20:21 GMT+02:00 Evan Cherry <

Adrian,
I think the problem Asuka address in #2 is,
the trigger won't be resolved when a player passes priority.
it will be resolved when a player would get priority

1. NAP has priority
2. Judge gets called
3. NAP passes priority
4. Wrath of God resolves (both players have passed priority)
5. AP would get priority now, so the trigger is resolved
6. Obzedat's trigger resolves, and he returns to the battlefield, saved from Heliod's Wrath

I am aware, that he meant that, but the IPG is worded in a such way, that
I'd treat it like a kind-of replacement effect. That means, the trigger is
resolved INSTEAD of recieving priority and then
everything happens as usual - AP gets priority and Wrath resolves. At least
I'd rule that if it happened in my tournament. Also, this seems like the
most logical way of handling this, taking the philosophy into account - if
the trigger should have happened some time ago, we want to handle it as
soon as possible, therefore the allowance of partial fix in that case.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


2014-06-08 2:48 GMT+02:00 Maykel . <forum-10529-67a8@apps.magicjudges.org>:

that's exactly the problem.
when NAP pass the priority,
AP won't get the priority back. (so the trigger won't resolve at that moment.)

Originally posted by Comp Rules:

608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves. (See rule 609, “Effects.”)

when both players have passed priority,
Wrath would resolves right away.
and only after that,

Originally posted by Comp Rules:

116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.

AP will get priority.

and this is the part that is replaced with the fix, the missed trigger is resolved prior to AP getting priority.
Obzedat is returned to the battlefield now.


meaning that Wrath had already resolved before Obzedat is returned to the battlefield.

Edited Maykel . (June 9, 2014 07:11:49 PM)

> On Jun 9, 2014, at 1:12 PM, Maykel .<forum-10529-5099@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
>
> that's exactly the problem.
> when NAP pass the priority,
> AP won't get the priority back. (so the trigger won't resolve at that moment.)
>
>
> Comp Rules
> 608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves. (See rule 609, “Effects.”)
>
> when both players have passed priority,
> Wrath would resolves right away.
> and only after that,
>
> Comp Rules
> 116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
>
> AP will get priority.
>
> and this is the part that is replaced with the fix, the missed trigger is resolved prior to AP getting priority.
> Obzedat is returned to the battlefield now.
>
>
> meaning that Wrath had already resolved before Obzedat is returned to the battlefield.


That is the real problem. When we had this come up at a PTQ, it was remedied correctly, and then our HJ began an investigation for cheating.

How could this be cheating?

In the case of our PTQ, we wanted to be sure that the Obzedat return trigger wasn't intentionally forgotten; however as I go back to read the original post, I see we had a separate case.

Our case was that the same player playing his Supreme Verdict controlled Obzedat and had forgotten to return him to play at upkeep. During 1st Main, he plays Supreme Verdict, and NAP calls a judge to ask what happens to Obzedat.

Since AP controlled Obzedat, we wanted to be sure he didn't conveniently “forget” his trigger.

My apologies for the confusion.

The current scenario as presented has low potential for cheating because AP was NEVER responsible for pointing out NAP's Obzedat trigger. If he notices and points it at a strategically more advantageous time, there is no cheating there.

Everyone, thank you very much for your responses.
It is very helpful for me to read them.
I'm sorry for not responding for a week.

I understand that both 1) and 2) are correct.
Then, I still have a question in association with 2).

3)
AP forgot to return Obzedat to the battlefield.
AP said “combat” in her precombat main phase.
NAP thought whether to activate a tapper for a moment,
and then they recognized Obzedat and called a judge.
NAP chose to return Obzedat now.

The point is that AP said “combat” and NAP stopped the game for a moment.
So, when they called a judge, it was beginning of combat step and NAP had priority.(MTR4.2)
Thinking in a like manner of 2),
if NAP decide to do nothing and pass priority,
it seems that Obzedat will return to the battlefield after declaring attackers,
so Obzedat cannot attack this turn.
Is this right?

Thank you for your time.

No, because you can't shortcut through a fix like that.

You are still considered to have had priority in the Beginning of Combat Step, even if you use a shortcut. Since NAP has decided to resolve the trigger whenever a player would receive priority next, that would be during the Beginning of Combat Step.

If NAP had accepted the shortcut before they both noticed the trigger, it would be different.

Edited Anthony Bucchioni (June 16, 2014 11:57:38 PM)

Anthony, thank you for your response.

AP still has priority in this situation.
If NAP had accepted the shortcut, it is considered that Obzedat cannot attack.
I understood like this. If it is still wrong, could someone tell me?

Again, thank you everyone for your time.

I don't know how comfortable I am with the call on #2, though it depends on how AP handles it. The point of these missed trigger rules are designed to let players not be punished for missing their triggers while still allowing their opponents opportunities to “outplay” the forgetful player, and this currently understanding for #2 doesn't allow that. For example, if AP is fully aware of NAP's Obzedat's missed trigger and is patiently waiting for the right opportunity to apply it, and AP casts Wrath of God, then AP should have an opportunity to point out Obzedat's trigger before Wrath resolves. Perhaps this opportunity is right after Wrath gets cast but before priority is passed, or perhaps it is by AP explicitly retaining priority while pointing out the trigger so that NAP still receives priority before Wrath resolves. Ultimately, the way that it works in the rules doesn't actually matter, if AP tells me “Hey, I just casts Wrath of God, I want his Obzedat trigger to resolve immediately, so that it's in play before Wrath resolves”, I'm going to let him.

Now, if AP tells me that they are in the middle of resolving Wrath and he just realized NAP's Obzedat isn't in play, then the story is much different.

First, try not to get too caught up in the oddities that this one card - Obzedat - creates. The Missed Trigger policy works great most of the time, and then along comes this corner where Obzedat results in some odd situations.

Next - if AP is aware all along, and wants to ensure that Obzedat gets caught up in the Wrath of God, then he or she simply has to point out the trigger before casting Wrath. That's not really an issue.

Finally - it is possible that both players forget about Obzedat until after Wrath resolves, resulting in an awkward remedy that puts Obzedat back on an otherwise empty battlefield.

I had that happen in GP:Chicago, only slightly different: AP untaps, forgets Obzedat, draws, probably plays a land, then casts some Wrath-like spell … and when they resolve it, one or both of them notice Obzedat sitting off to the side. I was very careful, questioning AP, who would now have Obzedat when it should have been destroyed by his own board sweeper. Ultimately, there was no indication that he was Cheating, so we handled things as prescribed - including explaining to NAP that he also had the opportunity to remember Obzedat sooner than he did.

So, an otherwise solid policy, carefully crafted, tested, and improved over years, runs afoul of one odd card's abilities; that, my friends, is part of what makes this game so fascinating, so durable, so … Magical!

d:^D