Welcome back to The Knowledge Pool! Thanks for this week's scenario goes to the almighty Scott Marshall . As with all Silver scenarios, L2+ judges should wait until Friday to respond.

The blog post for this scenario can be found here

Alan and Nadia are playing in a Theros Block GPT. Alan plays Thoughtseize targeting Nadia. in response, Nadia plays Dictate of Kruphix, then allows Thoughtseize to resolve, revealing the rest of her hand. Alan chooses a card for Nadia to discard, attacks with his creatures, then passes the turn.

Nadia untaps, draws for the turn, plays a land and says, “Go.”

Alan untaps, draws, plays a land, thinks for a moment, then says, “Hey, wait, I’m supposed to draw for your Dictate… and so were you, on your turn! JUDGE!!”

What do you do?

Missed Trigger for Nadia- only apply one Warning, since the symmetrical
trigger can be considered “generally detrimental” when Alan draws, and NOT
henerally detrimental when Nadia does. Even though Alan draws, it is
NADIA'S trigger to be responsible for. Easy as pie to deal with “Alan's”
trigger- ask him if he wants to skip ‘his’ draw, and if he wants to skip
Nadia's. He can skip both, or neither, or just one.

So most likely, Nadia gets a Warning for her Misses Trigger, Alan draws a
card, Nadia does not, and both players are reminded to play more carefully
and be more vigilant.

Here, we have two Missed Trigger infractions. Nadia will get a Warning for second one, in Alan's turn, as it's now detrimental, and no Warnings for the missed trigger in her turn, as it's then non-detrimental.

(MIPG 2.1)
The controller of a missed triggered ability receives a Warning only if the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player. The current game state is not a factor in determining this, though symmetrical abilities (such as Howling Mine) may be considered usually detrimental or not depending on who is being affected.

Alan will get to choose if he wants to put the missed trigger of his turn in the stack (and probably he'll do). The other one is simply skipped, as it occured before current phase in previous turn.

If the triggered ability creates an effect whose duration has already expired or the ability was missed prior to the current phase in the previous player's turn, instruct the players to continue playing.

It's Nadia's responsibility to remember the Dictate triggers regardless of who is drawing the extra card. Since Nadia's draw trigger was more than a turn ago we don't ask Alan if he wants to put it on the stack. Alan may put his draw trigger on the stack if he wishes to do so.

Alan hasn't committed an infraction, but Nadia has missed two triggers. Nadia's draw trigger is not generally detrimental so there's no penalty, but Alan's draw trigger is generally detrimental so she gets one Warning.

Nadia controls this trigger. It is not generally detrimental, but we can consider it detrimental on Alan's turn and not detrimental on Nadia's turn since it is a symmetrical trigger, even though we usually don't take game state into account when making that determination.

We are currently in Nadia's main phase. It is too late to place last turn's trigger on the stack, but we will give Nadia the option to place Alan's draw on the stack right away.

Assuming this is our first warning for MT in this event, we will simply remind Nadia that she is responsible for her own triggered abilities, and that additional warnings may be upgraded.

Edit: Got a little confused by the names. Nadia's trigger, so Alan chooses whether to put it on the stack, and if he does, Alan draws a card.

Edited Dan Collins (June 12, 2014 06:40:19 AM)

before reading other responses -

Dictate's trigger has been missed twice - once on Nadia's turn, once on Alan's turn. In both cases, the game has advanced since when the trigger would make a visible impact (drawing a card). In both cases, it's Nadia's trigger. On Nadia's turn, it's a not-generally-detrimental trigger. Since it's a symmetric effect, we can consider it a generally detrimental trigger on Alan's turn. We issue Nadia a Warning for GRV - Missed Trigger.

As for the fix - The trigger on Nadia's turn should have been resolved in her draw step. It's now Alan's Main Phase, so it's too late to remember it at all. The trigger on Alan's turn was forgotten, so we give Nadia's opponent (Alan) the choice to put it on the stack or not.

After reading other responses -

Since it's likely to cause some confusion (and potentially unhappiness) on Nadia's part, when giving the ruling, it's worth emphasizing and educating that Nadia control's the trigger in both cases, that it's her responsibility to make sure her opponent draws for the effect her enchantment creates.

As the controller of the Dictate, it is up to Nadia remember the triggers. Two triggers (may, see below) have been missed.

The first on Nadia's turn, was non-detrimental, and so will not earn a warning. Additionally it has been more than a turn since it would have triggered, so we will not perform any fix

The second was on Alan's turn.

I would query here how quickly Alan moved through the Untap/Draw/Play Land/Call Judge sequence, as Alan cannot cause the trigger to be missed by taking game actions (If it was determined Alan has not given Nadia any time to point out the trigger, then this is not a missed trigger after all, we would resolve the trigger, and apply no penalty). However, the scenario says there was a pause to think, which should have given Nadia enough time to point out the trigger.

As such, Nadia will earn a warning for a detrimental missed trigger (despite not being detrimental on Nadia's turn, as symmetrical abilities may be detrimental or not depending on who they apply to) and we will ask Nadia if the trigger should be added to the stack, and resolve it as normal if so.

My initial thought here is two GPE-Missed Trigger because both player forget to draw a card.

The first missed trigger happened at Nadine's upkeep. The Trigger is not detrimental for her, so there is no need to give a penalty. The duration for the fix expired, therefore no fix.

The second missed trigger happened at Alan's upkeep. Dictate of Kruphix affects both players, so its the responsibility of Nadia to point out the Trigger at Alan's upkeep. This time the trigger is detrimental for her, so Nadia will recieve a Warning. The error is caught early enough, so Alan can decide if he want to put the trigger on the stack so he can draw his card.

We will also remind Nadia that she Needs to point out the trigger from Dictate of Kruphix at Alan's turn since its a symetrical ability she controls.

I agree with everything that's been said here, there seems to be a clear
consensus.

I have one question though, apologies if this is not the right time/place
to ask: It is clear to me that Adam gets to choose to put the trigger that
allows him to draw on the stack, but does he have the same choice for
Nadia's trigger? A full turn cycle has not yet passed, and Adam might have
reasons to have Nadia draw cards (maybe he's playing a mill deck).

I would rule myself to have Adam choose for both missed triggers if he
wants them put on the stack or not.

Originally posted by Erik Kan:

It is clear to me that Adam gets to choose to put the trigger thatallows him to draw on the stack, but does he have the same choice forNadia's trigger? A full turn cycle has not yet passed, and Adam might havereasons to have Nadia draw cards

At which point of the turn does Dictate of Kruphix trigger for Nadja allowing her to draw a card and at which point of the turn are we as a judge being called to the table?

I see. I might have misunderstood the phrase “turn cycle”, then.

I'm a bit worried that i raise more confusion with my question (should have asked more clearly :/ sorry)

In this scenario Dictate of Kruphix triggers for Nadine at her upkeep, but when we arrive at the table ist Alex main phase 1 (he did play a land, and even if he did play it at main phase 2 it doesnt make any difference) so a full turn cycle did happen.

To nitpick, it triggers in Nadine's draw step :)

Thank you for pointing it out Jack :-)

It is my understanding that a turn cycle is defined as: from the beginning of a players step/phase until the end of the next same step/phase of that player.