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Competitive REL » Post: Missed Damage from Shocklands.

Missed Damage from Shocklands.

July 26, 2014 06:11:55 AM

Huxley Bentz
Judge (Uncertified)

None

Missed Damage from Shocklands.

Anders controls:

1 Temple of Triumph
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain

Anders casts Chandra's Phoenix attacks and passes with temple and mountain untapped. Nandish untaps draws and casts Duress. Anders says in response magma jet, and before Nandish can call judge, Anders resolves the scry putting one on bottom one on top. Nandish calls judge and claims that Anders shouldn't have the mana to cast the spell as he didn't announce the damage from playing Sacred Foundry last turn. Anders is uncertain whether he played his Sacred foundry that turn or the turn before. At this point both players have no cards in hand and neither life pad displays any change for sacred foundry in recent turns.

The call I made was Warning - GRV for Anders and told him be careful and keep track of his land more carefully and represent what mana he has untapped more clearly in the future. My reasoning was I was fairly confident that he had played a sacred foundry last turn and forgot the damage but that it was no different than if he had played the tapped land and cast chandras phoenix for RR and passed. Does this seem right? Making him take the two damage from the shock land seems like a partial fix.

Could we rewind if Nandish calls judge before the magma jet scry resolves considering the simple board state?

Edited Huxley Bentz (July 26, 2014 06:13:42 AM)

July 26, 2014 09:14:52 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Missed Damage from Shocklands.

If Nandish does his part to maintain the game state, he calls the judge when Anders plays the untapped Foundry w/o paying 2 life.

It sounds like maybe Anders is being sloppy with tapped and untapped lands, making it hard for Nandish to tell? If that's the case, then your ruling is fine; I'm not inclined to back up there, and you're right, applying the life loss later is not a supported partial fix (i.e., we don't do that).

If it was clear that Anders has two untapped lands when he ends his turn, then Nandish gets FtMGS to go with Anders' GRV (again, given that you believe Anders played the Foundry incorrectly).

And, if you believe that Nandish knew about the Foundry, but waited … things could get ugly for him.

July 28, 2014 07:11:51 PM

Talin Salway
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific West

Missed Damage from Shocklands.

So to clarify, Nandish believes that last turn, Anders played a Sacred Foundry, then cast Phoenix and attacked. Anders is unsure whether he played a Foundry. Also, Anders believed he passed the turn with 2 lands untapped, and Nandish believes only 1 land was untapped?

This is worth investigating. If Anders has now cards in hand now, he either had 2 cards in hand last turn and topdecked the 3rd, or he had 1 card in hand and topdecked the 2nd. While ‘did I play a land yet this turn?’ is something players often forget, I expect Anders had a pretty good idea of what his hand looked like, and Nandish would at least know the number of cards in hand.

When the turn was passed, did Nandish notice the number of untapped lands?

If Anders didn't play the Foundry last turn, then there's no issue besides confusion.

If Anders did play a land last turn, the error was either playing the land untapped without paying life, or tapping only 2 lands to pay for the Phoenix. I'm not sure how we'd determine between the two.

In either case, I don't think Magma Jet's scry resolving is a hard cut-off for rewinding. If I would rewind before the scry (debatable, and probably not), then I'd also rewind after the scry. The rewind just requires taking the 2 known cards, and shuffling them into the unknown portion of the library.

It's also possible that Anders passed the turn with only 1 untapped land, but the physical configuration was ambiguous enough that a tapped land became untapped.