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Today's scenario is Gold, this means that this scenario requires interpretation of policy. Everyone join in!


Here's the scenario:

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2012/10/16/anakins-lack-of-force/


Darth Vader is enrolled in a Legacy Competitive REL event. During his turn, Nute Gunray casts a Worldslayer, but Anakin denies him that by casting a Force of Will for its alternative cost: He exiles Leviathan. In his own turn, Anakin casts a Griselbrand and announces that he wants to activate its ability. When Nute and Anakin reach for their pens to adjust life totals, they realize that they both forgot to subtract 1 life for the Force of Will. Anakin now is at 8 life points, but they both agree he should have been at 7. They call a Judge.

You quickly investigate for bad intentions (always a good idea when dealing with Darth Vader), but this time around, it seems to be an honest mistake. How do you handle this situation?

This seems like a fairly straightforward GRV to me. Anakin cast Force of Will without paying the 1 life he was required to spend. This is a Competitive event, so under the IPG we issue a Warning for GRV to Anakin and a Warning for FtMGS to Nute. With the HJ's permission the game could be backed up to the point of the error (the casting of Force of Will), but if that doesn't happen, the IPG says not to implement a partial fix, and adjusting life totals without backing up is definitely a partial fix.

If I were HJ, the casting of Griselbrand and especially the activating of its ability is enough to make me unwilling to back up this scenario, so I'd issue the warnings to the players and get them to play on as-is, without adjusting life totals. Anakin will be at 1 life after finishing the activation of Griselbrand's ability.

I agree with Callum on this scenario.

I disagree on a minor point- I think that because he has announced the ability but not resolved it, there isn't too much damage to the game state to rewind back to the casting of force of will. I have no experience judging how many actions is ‘too many to rewind’ so if I'm off base here I'd love to hear why

Edit:
IPG 2.5 (Additional Remedy) states “If not caught within a reasonable time frame, or backing up is impossible or sufficiently complex that it could affect the course of the game, the judge should leave the game state as it is”.

How do we judge something to be sufficiently complex or not? And whether it could affect the course of the game? In this case, the activating of the trigger would be illegal had Force of Will been properly cast, but is that something that affects the course of the game? I don't know.

Edited Patrick Vorbroker (Oct. 16, 2012 02:36:30 PM)

Originally posted by Patrick Vorbroker:

I have no experience judging how many actions is ‘too many to rewind’ so if I'm off base here I'd love to hear why

I'd like to point out that the “how many is too many” question is one that always has the answer, “It depends.”

Rewinds are one part of judging where we earn our names. It is always a judgment call, and that fact is probably why our wizened elders put the requirement of HJ approval into the policy. I know some judges who will never backup if the draw for turn has happened since the backup point.

Removing Griselbrand's ability from the stack, returning it to it's owner's hand, returning a random card to the top of Anakin's library (if he drew a card) putting Leviathan and Force of Will back on the stack and going back to paying FoW cost; should be easy and harmless. The only advantage gained is the known information of Griselbrand and the card on top of Anakin's library. Reasonable to me, I would definitely back up. GE-GRV and GE-FTM respectively.

Originally posted by Patrick Vorbroker:

I disagree on a minor point- I think that because he has announced the ability but not resolved it, there isn't too much damage to the game state to rewind back to the casting of force of will. I have no experience judging how many actions is ‘too many to rewind’ so if I'm off base here I'd love to hear why

Don't forget that Anakin has presumably drawn his card for the turn as well.

As Christopher said, it's a judgment call. Will knowing the top card of his library change Anakin's course of play? Maybe the top card was that Griselbrand and Anakin had originally cast the Force of Will not knowing that he'd need the extra point of life to use its ability. Maybe it was a bounce spell that'd deal with the Worldslayer better than the Force and he'll decide not to use the Force at all. Maybe it was an Island that he could use to cast Leviathan, so he'll decide to exile something else instead. Certainly being at 7 life instead of 8 will change Anakin's course of play–he's not going to decide to activate Griselbrand after a backup, and may decide not to cast him at all.

Some judges will be comfortable backing up here. I'm not one of them, though.

Originally posted by Patrick Vorbroker:

In this case, the activating of the trigger would be illegal had Force of Will been properly cast, but is that something that affects the course of the game? I don't know.

Actually, activating the ability would be legal…it'd just be lethal, since paying 7 would leave him at 0, killing him.

One thing not being considered so far about the “don't back up” course of action is that Anakin will get to draw 7 cards (pending Nute doesn't have Stifle or a similar effect). That's a HUGE advantage compared to the additional knowledge of the card drawn for the turn if you back up.

Unless I'm missing something here, the IPG gives the HJ the flexibility to make a judgment call based on the situation. I would absolutely back up here. Anakin should not get to draw 7 cards off Griselbrand when he would not have the ability to pay the cost of doing so.

Thanks David for the great question!

There seems to be a couple of interesting things to think about in this scenario:
1. Did the players “forget” the pay 1 life clause of force of will?
2. Were the players announcing changes in life total? (This is something that will change the answer significantly)
3. If the players forgot to write down the life total change, is it a PCV? What is the life pads represent in terms of information?
4. If we can backup, are we going to back up?

First let me address question 3. When I read this scenario my mind went instantly to PCV, which is why question 2 is so important. There is a situation where this could be a PCV, and that is if the plays agree that Anakin did in fact lose the life, and they announced the life total incorrectly. Life total is considered to be free information, and incorrectly announcing life total leads to a PCV (Note section 4.1 of the MTR, on PCV and free information). When this situation occurs normally though the players did in fact forget the life for force of will, and I would be pressed hard to rule this a PCV based on most situations.

This is also another wrinkle here in regards to the players life pads. If the players in fact resolved the trigger and forgot to write down the change looks like a PCV on the surface, but it is not. Life Pads are considered notes based on the policy outlined in section 2.9 of the MTR (taking notes), and since notes are private information according to 2.9, a miss writing on life totals does not make a PCV, since PCV is a misrepresentation on Free or Derived information (MTR 4.1).

So in this situation if the players agree that the life payment did occur, then the players have the wrong life total, and we correct the life total to the correct value. Unfortunately for Anakin, he has already announced Grisslebrand,s ability, and according to section 602.2 of the Comp Rules, announcements and payments once made can not be altered. Anakin is now at zero life, and will lose the game as state based actions are checked before Darth Vader or Anakin get priority during the priority step after the ability has been activated.

If the players did not remember the life payment then the situation is a little better for Anakin. In the case we have a Game Play Error, Game Rule Violation (IPG 3.6), with a Failure to Maintain Game State (IPG 3.7) attached. In this case we have the option to back up according to the additional remedy. The problem is, do we back up, and my answer is no. My philosophy of back ups is based on something told to me by a high level judge at a GP a while back - base the backup on the number of play decision points that have occurred since the infraction occurred. Will backing up significantly change the line of play the players have set out? In this case, yes, way too many things have occurred, mainly the card draw, the knowledge of two cards (force and the Leviathan), and the knowledge that Anakin can not not even cast Grislebrand to activate his ability due to his life if he counters worldslayer.

I leave the game state alone, no change in life total, GPE-GRV, and GPE - FTMGS, continue play, including the life payment for Grislebrand. Next time, do not forget to pay life for force of will!

Edited Amanda Swager (Oct. 16, 2012 04:13:16 PM)

Originally posted by Michael Swager:

If the players did not remember the life payment then the situation is a little better for Anakin. In the case we have a Game Play Error, Game Rule Violation (IPG 3.6), with a Failure to Maintain Game State (IPG 3.7) attached. In this case we have the option to back up according to the additional remedy. The problem is, do we back up, and my answer is no. My philosophy of back ups is based on something told to me by a high level judge at a GP a while back - base the backup on the number of play decision points that have occurred since the infraction occurred. Will backing up significantly change the line of play the players have set out? In this case, yes, way too many things have occurred, mainly the card draw, the knowledge of two cards (force and the Leviathan), and the knowledge that Anakin can not not even cast Grislebrand to activate his ability due to his life if he counters worldslayer.

I leave the game state alone, no change in life total, GPE-GRV, and GPE - FTMGS, continue play, including the life payment for Grislebrand. Next time, do not forget to pay life for force of will!

Totally agree with Michael

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please avoid posting to the Knowledge Pool with no other message than “I
agree”. Make your posts meaningful and constructive.

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David de la Iglesia
L3, Spain
Knowledge Pool Lead

Echoing Mr. Swager
I am under the impression that we have a player whose notes (in this case the notes include his written life total) are not in-sync with the game state (something that is not a penalty to my knowledge), it appears that there was no announcement of his life total being anything other than seven which means that there is no PCV here. He is at seven, has some other number written on some paper, and still needs to pay the costs for activating Griselbrand's ability.

No penalty, continue on your merry way.

If there was no griselbrandyness going on, would we actually be worrying about rewinding or a penalty at all? or would we just say “your notes are wrong, you might want to fix that” I am inclined to think it is the latter, and thus also applies in this case.

(Deleted earlier post, because I misread the scenario)

In this case, what I would do depends very much on the accounts the players give of that turn. Did he forget to pay the life, or did he forget to write down the change of life total? These are very different scenarios, and I'm not sure it is clear from the original information as to which one occurred.

First thought: Someone's playing Worldslayer in a Legacy tournament? And someone else is bothering to waste a Force of Will countering it?!

Executive summary: Assuming I'm interpreting how rewinds are handled correctly - no backup, GRV to Anakin, FtMGS to Nute, “Play more carefully,” game on with Anakin at 1 life after paying the cost for G's ability.

Full response:

Originally posted by David Tuell:

One thing not being considered so far about the “don't back up” course of action is that Anakin will get to draw 7 cards (pending Nute doesn't have Stifle or a similar effect). That's a HUGE advantage compared to the additional knowledge of the card drawn for the turn if you back up.

Unless I'm missing something here, the IPG gives the HJ the flexibility to make a judgment call based on the situation. I would absolutely back up here. Anakin should not get to draw 7 cards off Griselbrand when he would not have the ability to pay the cost of doing so.

My understanding was that decisions on whether or not to back up are explicitly NOT based on potential advantage to one player or another, but rather if “the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game.” (IPG, GRV, Add. Remedy) To quote the Philosophy paragraph from the GRV section of the IPG: "It is tempting to try and ‘fix’ these errors, but it is important that they be handled consistently, regardless of their impact on the game." (emphasis mine)

My decision on whether or not to back up hinges on this sentence: “Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error.” (IPG, GRV, Add. Remedy) A literal reading suggests that the rewind would only be to before costs are paid, but my memory says that this is generally interpreted to mean before the illegally cast spell was announced.

If Anakin were still committed to casting Force of Will, then I would recommend backing up to the HJ. Griselbrand goes back in hand, a random card from Anakin's hand is put onto his library, Worldslayer and Force of Will go back onto the stack, and Leviathan goes back into Anakin's hand. Then, Anakin correctly pays the alternative cost (having already announced that he was doing so), paying 1 life and exiling a blue card (which may or may not be Leviathan). Nute's turn continues from there. The most likely continuation looks pretty much the same as what we saw before, except that Anakin might not cast Griselbrand, and certainly won't be activating his ability. This seems simple enough that I find backing up acceptable.

However, if (as I believe to be true) we would rewind to before the announcement of Force of Will, then I would not back up. In that situation, there is a significant possibility that Anakin would decide against casting Force of Will, leading to a significantly different board state and crossing my personal line into “too much disruption to the course of the game.” Play on from here: Anakin pays 7 life, ending up at 1, and G's ability on the stack.

In either case, GRV to Anakin and FtMGS to Nute. (warnings both)

Originally posted by Callum Milne:

With the HJ's permission the game could be backed up to the point of the error (the casting of Force of Will)

Dan DiTursi
If Anakin were still committed to casting Force of Will, then I would recommend backing up to the HJ. Griselbrand goes back in hand, a random card from Anakin's hand is put onto his library, Worldslayer and Force of Will go back onto the stack, and Leviathan goes back into Anakin's hand. Then, Anakin correctly pays the alternative cost (having already announced that he was doing so), paying 1 life and exiling a blue card (which may or may not be Leviathan).

If a rewind were to occur, I would be extremely uncomfortable with reversing the entire casting of the Force. The IPG instructs us to “back up the game to the point of the error”, and (I feel) the point of error was forgetting to pay 1 life, not the casting of Force of Will per se. If the game is backed up, I think it is reasonable to hold Anakin to his decision to (1) have cast Force of Will and (2) exile the Leviathan. To reiterate, the casting of Force of Will was not illegal or the cause of a Game Rule Violation per se; the Game Rule Violation here was that Anakin failed to follow all the instructions in the alternative cost.

That said, is a rewind even what we want here? I like that Michael brought up “decision points,” which is also what I thought of when I read this scenario. It looks like three have occurred, in addition to Anakin's draw for the turn:

1. Anakin chose to cast Griselbrand.
   
2. Nute chose to let Griselbrand resolve. (This may be more or less relevant depending on Nute's deck, cards in hand, mana available, etc.)
   
3. Anakin chose to activate Griselbrand's ability.
   

We can be fairly certain that the rewind will change Anakin's line of play on point #3, since activating Griselbrand's ability is now lethal. It seems unlikely to change Nute's line of play on point #2. The sticking point is #1, as Anakin could very well choose to cast a different creature, or try to Brainstorm Griselbrand away, or something of that nature. This looks like two decision points, but I feel that #1 and #3 are tightly linked in this case. So I would say the game has only crossed one major decision point (but others could argue that the number is higher).

Overall, the IPG instructs us to back up “safely” and “without too much disruption.” However, given the limited information presented in this scenario, it's very hard for me to determine if this represents a “safe” backup, especially in Legacy – we don't know how much mana Anakin has available, or if he has a Brainstorm in his hand, just for example. Personally, I initially wanted to back up, but a re-reading of the IPG led me to err on the side of not backing up, not “correcting” Anakin's life total, and simply assessing GRV/FTM penalties. The game proceeds with Griselbrand's ability still on the stack.