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Regular REL » Post: Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Sept. 2, 2014 06:52:18 PM

Glenn Fisher
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific Northwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

At the end of the game, players are required to reveal all morphed creatures to their opponent. I anticipate this getting ignored and/or forgotten at upcoming FNMs and drafts.

I will announce the requirement at the start of our first few events with Khans, but my understanding is that the enforcement of that rule is completely toothless at regular REL.

Just to confirm, if a player shuffles their morph card(s) into their deck at the end of a game, I should just tell them “don't do that.” We don't ask them to find the card that they had played (honor system) and reveal it to their opponent after it's already been shuffled in.

Sept. 2, 2014 07:02:51 PM

Dustin De Leeuw
Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program)), Tournament Organizer

BeNeLux

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

The enforcement isn't “completely toothless”: if a player repeatedly forgets, you might upgrade the penalty to a Game Loss (but make sure to explain this beforehand, and don't do this too fast). If you suspect cheating, it's a Serious Problem.

But yes, if a player accidentally and incidentally forgets to reveal a morphed creature at the end of the game, just explain why it should be revealed and remind him/her to reveal it next time. The JAR doesn't enforce players to go through their deck after a game has finished and show a card to their opponent.

Sept. 2, 2014 10:43:21 PM

Kevin Binswanger
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Clever players can wait for the end of the game and stop their opponent from shuffling their morphs back in. This helps uphold the rules and makes sure they get the information they're entitled to.

Kevin

Sept. 3, 2014 02:11:49 AM

Kim Warren
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

I would strongly recommend announcing during prerelease and game day events that players are required to reveal their morphed cards when the game ends or the cards leave play to prove the legality of their actions. But otherwise, yes - the focus at Regular REL is education, so unless someone is really not absorbing the lesson or you think that they are cheating, please do not take strong punitive action (and if you think they are cheating, please DQ them!)

Sept. 3, 2014 02:42:03 AM

Gareth Pye
Judge (Level 2 (Oceanic Judge Association))

Ringwood, Australia

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Glenn Fisher <
forum-12297-d4a1@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> We don't ask them to find the card that they had played (honor system) and
> reveal it to their opponent after it's already been shuffled in.


I don't see a good reason to not ask them to do this. Can someone give me
one?

Sept. 3, 2014 11:13:25 AM

Joe Brooks
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Originally posted by Gareth Pye:

On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Glenn Fisher <
forum-12297-d4a1@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> We don't ask them to find the card that they had played (honor system) and
> reveal it to their opponent after it's already been shuffled in.


I don't see a good reason to not ask them to do this. Can someone give me
one?

It seems to me that asking them to do that would be time consuming at the end of the round, and also wouldn't really solve the problem, because once everything is shuffled in, how would the opponent know that the card they found was actually the one they cast during the game?

Seems better to just educate the players and remind them to reveal next time. (Unless cheating is suspected of course…)

Sept. 3, 2014 11:17:03 AM

Thomas Ludwig
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Announcing to the players that they have to reveal face down morph cards when either the game ends or these cards enter another zone seems smart.

If someone fails to do so, be sure to get the card´s name, so the opponent knows it, because he should, this seems like a good fix, there is no need to make a player search his deck for the card, because we believe him, if not that´s a serious problem.

You expect some more trouble the first weeks with Khans, so be out in the field! Walk the floor, be present, check what happens!

Sept. 3, 2014 12:22:49 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

When Morph debuted, back in the days of Onslaught (so long ago, that set's not even Modern legal!) … we had some interesting discussions on the Judge e-mail list about how to handle this.

As you can imagine, there were rampant fears that players would cheat with lands and other non-Morph cards. Or even just make mistakes, that would give them some imagined advantage.

We encouraged judges, at least for the first few weeks, to just randomly check face-down cards for Morph-ness; for one, this would allay the fears of the opponent, and for another, it would help judges feel better.

After a number of weeks, we concluded that the fears were - as is often the case, with new mechanics and new sets - “Much Ado About Nothing”. But maybe our pro-active approach prevented what we feared?

Feel free to do those random spot-checks again, esp. if your player base seems anxious about Morph cheats. Just be careful not to reveal any info - just lift the card carefully, so only you (and perhaps the controller) can see, then nod and say “yep, it's a Morph”. Do that a couple times early in an event, and players will realize that it's a very high risk, low reward scenario.

d:^D

Sept. 9, 2014 03:47:58 PM

Dave Gale
Judge (Level 1 (UK Magic Officials))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

We certainly can use a game loss if it's really really really necessary but, as Kim says, we don't want to be there any time quickly at all.

I like Scott's proactive idea but if I'm playing in the same event I can see people not wanting me looking at all their cards. Any thoughts?

Sept. 9, 2014 04:10:00 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Just make sure you announce that at the beginning - “Because Morph is new to many of us, Judges will be randomly checking face-down cards” or something similar. And note that the announcement alone is likely sufficient deterrent to any Cheating!

d:^D

Sept. 9, 2014 05:15:22 PM

Kim Warren
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Originally posted by Dave Gale:

We certainly can use a game loss if it's really really really necessary but, as Kim says, we don't want to be there any time quickly at all.

If it's really really necessary, because a player is repeatedly making the mistake despite having been told not to and educated as to why, we can go to a game loss to reinforce the education. It's really better not to, though.

Originally posted by Dave Gale:

I like Scott's proactive idea but if I'm playing in the same event I can see people not wanting me looking at all their cards. Any thoughts?

I agree that this is probably not a good idea for a judge who is also playing in the event to do - if there is another staff member, such as the TO or someone working the till, you could maybe see if they wouldn't mind doing it? Or do it at some events where there is an extra judge, but not others?

Sept. 9, 2014 05:24:25 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Failure to Reveal at Regular REL

Originally posted by Kim Warren:

this is probably not a good idea for a judge who is also playing in the event to do
oh, wow, I didn't even think about that aspect - the first time Morph came around, judges weren't playing in events…

(Note to self: Kim am smart, m'kay?)

d:^D