This thread is for discussing the article Morph Rules Problems - Face-down in a Face-up World by Nathan Long.

Wow, Morph is really tricky, but this article is great, thank you very much

Morph VS Garruk's Horde and Zoetic Cavern:

Usually, there is a difference when a card uses “spell” or “card”. Since Horde uses “Card”, why is zoetic cavern allowed to be cast when it's revealed? the article mentioned “because it's a creature spell”, but I am having a little trouble understanding the subtleties of this interaction and others that also differentiate between “card” and “spell”

When we cast a spell, the first thing we do is put it on the stack and see if we're allowed to cast it. With the Horde on the battlefield and the Cavern on top, we decide we want to cast the Cavern face down. So we turn the Cavern face down, put it on the stack, and the game checks to see if we can cast it. It's face down, so it's a creature, and the game sees the Horde, which lets you cast a creature card from the top of your library. The game ok with this, so you can cast it.

This is similar to the Prophet of Kruphix/bestow interaction. When we first put the bestow creature on the stack, it's still a creature at that point, so it has flash and the game allows you to cast it. Later on during announcement, if you choose to cast it for its bestow cost (thereby making it a noncreature spell), you're still allowed to cast it, since we passed that first check when the spell was first announced.

I was talking with my friend about the interaction between Morph and turn to frog, I understand that if a player cast turn to frog targeting a morph in the battlefield, the morph is still a 2/2 but the actual face of the card is a 1/1 blue frog with no option to turn it up. am I right?

This is addressed in the article:

Let’s say that your opponent casts Turn to Frog on your face-down creature? Well, mostly what you’d expect: your face-down creature becomes a 1/1 blue Frog with no abilities. But what happens if you try to turn it face-up? Well, this is where things become a little weird. Remember, as stated above, if you want to turn it face-up, you need to reveal the Morph cost and then pay that cost. But since it’s affected by Turn to Frog (and has no abilities), when you turn the face-down creature face-up, there is no Morph cost to be paid, so you’re unable to pay the Morph cost and cannot turn it face-up.

The face down creature is a 1/1 blue frog for the turn. You cannot turn it face up, because part of turning a face down creature face up is revealing the card and showing what the morph cost is. But Turn to Frog removes that ability, so we cannot reveal the morph cost and it remains face down (if you found another way to turn it face up, like an opponent's Break Open, then it would still be a 1/1 blue Frog with no abilities after it's turned face up).

Thanks, I was confused but I think everything is clear now, we have big expectations for the pre release this weekend.

You forgot to cover what happens if I Ertai's Meddling a morph spell. You also missed Zoetic Cavern + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Ashes of the Fallen. These are important interactions that totally actually happen in real Magic.

But in all seriousness, thanks for writing that Nathan. Now to find a playset of Phyrexian Dreadnaughts.

Just out of curiosity:

So if I can Exalted Angel and someone casts Ertai's Meddling targeting it, it would then be put on the stack face-up and when it resolves it enters the battlefield as a face-up Exalted Angel that is a 2/2 colorless creature with no cost/creature type etc.?

And how does the Haakon interraction work? :)

Edited Krzysztof Ciesielka (Sept. 17, 2014 01:36:10 AM)

Ashes of the Fallen makes creatures in your graveyard Knights. Zoetic Cavern is never a creature in your graveyard, it becomes one when you put it on the stack. As I see it, there is no interaction with Haakon :)

@Krzysztof: I think you're right about the Ertai's Meddling interaction but would like to see this confirmed :)

Gatherer card rulings for Ertai's meddling confirms said interaction with morph.

I also believe there's no interaction with Haakon, once Zoetic Cavern is on the stack it won't have creature types so Haakon won't let you cast it. Not that it had some in the graveyard.

Great article, morph is a tricky mechanic with weird interactions. Always good to shed some light on it.

Edited Robin Runesson (Sept. 17, 2014 06:29:28 AM)

With Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Ashes of the Fallen you can cast a morphed Zoetic Cavern. Haakon talks about playing cards (not spells) from your graveyard. So, to see whether the morphvern can be played, it checks its characteristics just after it is turned face down (702.36b), but before it is put onto the stack. At that point, the morphvern is a Knight card.

Edited Nelson Mendoza Moral (Sept. 17, 2014 07:08:42 AM)

After consulting 702.36b I'd say I'm wrong, Haakon, Stromgald Scourge allows you to cast Zoetic Cavern as a colorless nameless 2/2 creature with the sub-type Knight and no text or mana cost from the graveyard as long as Ashes of the Fallen is in play and set to Knight.

Thanks Nelson for yet again proving morph is tricky, even for judges.

Edited Robin Runesson (Sept. 17, 2014 08:07:53 AM)

To me, it seems like a very weird situation.

There's nothing in play that lets you play lands from your graveyard.

702.36b says “You can use morph to cast a card from any zone from which you
could normally play it.” which tells me that you would NOT be allowed to
cast Zoetic Cavern as morph from your graveyard in this situation.
Adding a Crucible of Worlds could “fix” that, perhaps.

Just my 2 cents,
Richard Drijvers

2014-09-17 14:50 GMT+02:00 Robin Runesson <

Richard, the key here is the first part of rule 702.36b: “To cast a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to casting a card with these characteristics (and not the face-up card’s characteristics) are applied to casting this card.” which informs the part you quoted. So, by the time you get to the determination of whether you can play a card that you have chosen to use morph as an alternative cost, it is a 2/2 face-down creature card - in this case, in the graveyard.