Head Judging an SCG IQ this weekend, I had an interesting scenario that I bring before you now.

Players A and B finish game 2 (which B has just won) and call for a judge. They disagree on who won game one. A is tracking life totals on dice, which is no help. B has been tracking life totals on paper, but her records for game 1 end with life totals of 8 and 9, with no indication of who won. Has an infraction occurred, and, if so, which one? What would you instruct the players to do, or how would you proceed?

I welcome your thoughts before I tell what I did. Has anyone had this happen before?

Ask both players who went first in game 2. Its usually a good indication on who won game 1.

Ask the players who chose to play/draw for Game 2. Whoever made the choice lost.

If they don't remember this as well then ask them how the flow of game one was towards the end, check the life pads for the previous changes was one incremental and the other large chunks

Well, there are two possible occurrences:
1) They forgot who won game 1. You can usually get players to remember
with some directed questions. If you can get them to recall, just move
forward. As others have said, thinking about who went first in game 2
could help that discussion. If you believe that someone actually won the
game, then figure it out and let them know.

2) Both players believed that they won (or lost) Game 1. I had this happen
in a Vintage event. Player A took a few actions and then said “Go to game
2?”. Player B thought that Player A “fizzled” his combo and was
conceding. Player A thought he had shown Player B that he was going to win
and was asking him to concede. They didn't realize the issue until one
player asked the other if he wanted to play or draw. In this case, no one
actually won the game. They just agreed to move to game 2. In that case,
since no one won, it should be a drawn game.

Shawn

Ok, so far we're matching what actually happened pretty closely. Neither player remembers who went first game 2, so no help there. It's not even that they disagree. .. they flay or don't remember. We try walking back through the last part off their turn. B had a giant ensouled, equipped, and counter-stacked ornithopter and could have won in one swing. “A” had a giant trample creature and could have won in a single swing, too. Neither agrees which happened first, and neither seems more certain in any way. Neither has any kind of clear, descriptive detail to add that helps you favor one over the other. You ask pointed questions and determine no cheating is involved. Nothing shady… just two tired players who appear genuinely unsure. How do you proceed?

It's an odd one, to be sure - one of those situations where you just have to do your best to figure out what really happened - and then find a reasonable solution. At this point, all we KNOW about this match is that B is ahead 1-0, and there's a game that has no clear winner. Have them keep playing until they BOTH remember who won 2 games…

I got nothin' else…

d:^D

That's exactly what I did. I officially declared the 1st game a draw, advised both players to keep more detailed notes (especially the guy keeping life on dice at a competitive event) and asked them to keep playing until one player had won two games. No penalties were assigned.

I have yet to have this situation come up in game 1 but I have had it
happen in game 3.
You and Scott both mentioned exactly what I would have done in your
situation.
My situation happened right near the end of the round so luckily I had
spectators I could interview. I alway stry to tell players to mark a ‘W’,
smiley face, or something to notate who won. I try to start that “training”
during regular REL events as well and i try to educate the dice users that
for any tournament magic to use pen & paper.
My example to them is always that if there is a life total discrepancy the
life pad is a lot more convincing than the dice.
That normally gets them to change their behavior and I hope that it
benefits them at some point in the future.

I advocate a letter next to the players name indicating that they were the
one to choose Play or Draw and which they chose :)

Sometimes that matters as well.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Josh McCurley <
forum-13424-2134@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> I have yet to have this situation come up in game 1 but I have had it
> happen in game 3.
> You and Scott both mentioned exactly what I would have done in your
> situation.
> My situation happened right near the end of the round so luckily I had
> spectators I could interview. I alway stry to tell players to mark a ‘W’,
> smiley face, or something to notate who won. I try to start that “training”
> during regular REL events as well and i try to educate the dice users that
> for any tournament magic to use pen & paper.
> My example to them is always that if there is a life total discrepancy the
> life pad is a lot more convincing than the dice.
> That normally gets them to change their behavior and I hope that it
> benefits them at some point in the future.
>
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–
Gareth Pye
Level 2 Judge, Melbourne, Australia
Australian MTG Forum: mtgau.com
gareth@cerberos.id.au - www.rockpaperdynamite.wordpress.com
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”