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Competitive REL » Post: Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

Oct. 22, 2014 07:11:42 PM

Jason Daniels
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southwest

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

MTR 3.9.2 goes over Card Shuffling, specifically allowing your opponent to shuffle the player's deck. I believe the spirit of this rule is that if the player is attempting to manipulate the deck, any manipulation attempts would be rendered moot by the opponent shuffling the deck in their own way. However, I am not sure if the rule was written considering the possibility that it may the be opponent doing the manipulating of the deck.

My suggestion is as follows. Once the deck is presented, the opponent may either cut the deck or shuffle it additionally. If the opponent shuffles the deck additionally, the player has the option to cut his deck once it is returned to him. Cutting the deck could be defined as taking a top portion of the deck and moving it to the bottom of the deck in the same order (single cut, not 3 pile cut).

This would effectively apply what I believe to be the spirit of the rule to both players. If the player is attempting to manipulate their deck, it would be thwarted by the opponent's permission to cut or shuffle. And if the opponent is attempting to manipulate the deck, it would be thwarted by the player's permission to cut. This is a simple modification that I believe is not a time consuming addition to the match while adding additional protection to ensure the integrity of the tournament and the players. I feel it is appropriate for Regular and Competitive REL as the MTR applies to both.

Thoughts, opinions?

Thanks,
Jason Daniels
Level 2 - Arlington, TX

Oct. 22, 2014 07:16:07 PM

Justin Miyashiro
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

Perhaps someone who was more into the discussions than I can comment
further, but a final cut was a part of the rules until a few years ago. My
understanding was that it was removed so that a player would not be the
last person to touch his or her own deck as part of randomizing.

I assume that concern still applies, although it is certainly worth
re-addressing in light of recent events.

Oct. 22, 2014 09:41:06 PM

Bryan Prillaman
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Southeast

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

One of the reasons the “final cut” was removed was because I (the player)
could have subtly marked sleeves (maybe a slightly smaller sleeve) and be
able to cut to a specific card.

Also, please keep in mind that all it will take is one high profile caught
on camera cheat of a player getting “last touch” on his deck, cutting to a
specific marked card, and people will be running to the forums demanding
that the opponent get last touch again.

Basically, people are gonna demand whatever it is that would prevent the
last cheat they saw, regardless of the fact they were demanding the
opposite 6 months ago.

Oct. 23, 2014 01:53:58 AM

Sal Cortez
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific West

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

How about if you see your opponent shuffling with the cards facing them… call a judge :I

Oct. 23, 2014 05:54:48 AM

James Winward-Stuart
Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Tournament Organizer

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

Note also that it's much easier for a player to do the cut-to-marked-card cheat that Bryan mentions than for the opponent to manipulate the deck while shuffling it.

Nov. 14, 2014 04:10:50 PM

Glenn Fisher
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific Northwest

Card Shuffling - MTR Idea/Suggestion

Originally posted by James Winward-Stuart:

Note also that it's much easier for a player to do the cut-to-marked-card cheat that Bryan mentions than for the opponent to manipulate the deck while shuffling it.

That's the part I always emphasize whenever this comes up.

Now that people know to look for the Boettcher/Humphries cheat, it's not that hard to identify and call out. Even if you don't know what you're looking for, asking your opponent to stop shuffling your deck after 20 seconds should shut off any shenanigans. Cheating like they did requires an inordinate amount of time.