In Nathan's article, the chapter about Zoetic Cavern, Courser of Kruphix and Garruk's Horde seems to mean that the legality of playing the face-down card is checked after it has been put onto the stack. In that zone, it is no longer a Knight since Ashes of the Fallen applies only in the graveyard, so why would Haakon, Stromgald Scourge still allow it?

Originally posted by Loïc Hervier:

In Nathan's article, the chapter about Zoetic Cavern, Courser of Kruphix and Garruk's Horde seems to mean that the legality of playing the face-down card is checked after it has been put onto the stack. In that zone, it is no longer a Knight since Ashes of the Fallen applies only in the graveyard, so why would Haakon, Stromgald Scourge still allow it?

702.36b specifically says that you turn the card face-down before putting it onto the stack and that “Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to casting a card with these characteristics (and not the face-up card's characteristics) are applied to casting this card. These values are the copiable values of that object's characteristics”

Edited Robin Runesson (Nov. 23, 2014 03:58:12 PM)

I apologize but I don't understand how 702.36b let you deduce that the face-down Zoetic Cavern is still a Knight on the stack and in play. The sentence "These values are the copiable values of that object's characteristics“ seems to refer only to the first part of the rule (”It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost"), not to any characteristics the face-down card may have in the zone it is cast from.

Moreover I still don't understand why Nathan's article states that the legality of casting is checked after the card is put on the stack, whereas the first sentence you quoted from 702.36b seems to mean it is checked before. Or is it checked twice?

The article gives the correct result, based on 702.36b, but I agree that the particular explanation makes it seem as if things are happening in a different order than what's described in 702.36b. Turning the card face down and checking legality happens before it's moved to the stack.

In the case of Haakon/Ashes, Zoetic Cavern only needs to be a Knight right before the moment it would be moved to the stack. Because turning it face down makes it a Creature card in the graveyard, it's affected by Ashes at that time.

Just to confirm, yes, you can cast the Cavern face down with Haakon and Ashes of the Fallen naming ‘Knight’. We turn the Cavern face down, move it to the stack, and check to see if we're allowed to cast it. It's a creature, and since it was briefly face down, it was affected by the Ashes for a short time. When the game checks to see if you were allowed to cast it, it sees the face down creature on the stack, the Haakon in play, and that was briefly a Knight (because of the Ashes), and so you're allowed to cast it.

Keep in mind that this is pretty much a corner case scenario - you're probably unlikely to run into it at a local tournament (you might run in to Haakon+Ashes, but not with Cavern).

Let's use Exalted Angel as example.

With the phrase “Well, mostly what you’d expect: your face-down creature becomes a 1/1 blue Frog with no abilities.”, you mean the angel becomes a frog?

What about the 2/2 colorless? It stays the same? Which rule indicates this?

The face down creature is a 1/1 blue Frog with no abilities. If you try to
turn it face up, Turn to Frog is still affecting it, so when you reveal
what it would be when it's face up, it's still a 1/1 blue Frog with no
abilities. Since it has no abilities, it can't be turned face up for its
morph cost since it doesn't have morph. So no matter what, whether it's
face up or face down, Turn to Frog is making it into a 1/1 blue creature
with no abilities.

Nathan, hello
I have a question regarding this line:

If the creature happens to have an X in its mana cost, then X will be equal to 0.

We have 3 rules that “kinda” refer to such situations:

107.3d If a cost associated with a special action, such as a suspend cost or a morph cost, has an {X} or an X in it, the value of X is chosen by the player taking the special action as he or she pays that cost.

107.3f If a card in any zone other than the stack has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of {X} is treated as 0, even if the value of X is defined somewhere within its text.

107.3g If an effect instructs a player to pay an object’s mana cost that includes {X}, the value of X is treated as 0 unless the object is a spell on the stack. In that case, the value of X is the value chosen or determined for it as the spell was cast.

To quote here manifest rule:

701.31b Any time you have priority, you may turn a manifested permanent you control face up. This is a special action that doesn't use the stack (see rule 115.2b). To do this, show all players that the card representing that permanent is a creature card and what its mana cost is, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. The effect defining its characteristics while it was face down ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. If the card representing that permanent isn't a creature card or doesn't have a mana cost, it can't be turned face up this way.

So, isn't this cost associated with a special action and thus falls under 107.3d?

I know that is mostly irrelevant as there's no card that would benefit from paying anything for that {X} (say Hooded Hydra), as the 2 cards that actually have {X} in their morph costs don't have {X} in the mana cost, but it's more a clarification question. What am I missing?

107.3g is the rule that applies. When you're turning a face down card face
up via manifest, you need to pay the card's mana cost. You're instructed to
pay the mana cost of the card to turn it face up, and since it's not a
spell on the stack, you have to treat X in the cost as 0. 107.3g was
specifically updated to address this situation (as well as other situations
where some effect has you pay the card's mana cost). 107.3d does not apply
because it applies to pay the morph cost to turn it face up. It doesn't
apply to manifest costs. You can read about the change in the Update
Bulletin -
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/fate-reforged-update-bulletin-comprehensive-rule-changes-2015-01-15

Nathan Long
DCI Level 2 Judge

Originally posted by Nathan Long:

107.3g is the rule that applies.

Hm…
From my point of view

the rule

609.1 An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.

and the rule

701.31b Any time you have priority, you may turn a manifested permanent you control face up. This is a special action that doesn’t use the stack (see rule 115.2b). To do this, show all players that the card representing that permanent is a creature card and what that card’s mana cost is, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. The effect defining its characteristics while it was face down ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. (If the card representing that permanent isn’t a creature card or it doesn’t have a mana cost, it can’t be turned face up this way.)

show that 107.3g can't be applied for turning a manifested card face up, since a special action is NOT an effect.

107.3d can't applied since the game asks us to pay not any “cost associated with a special action” but mana cost.
Mana cost is effected by 107.3f. So we have to treat X as 0.