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Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Nov. 28, 2012 09:13:44 AM

Dustin De Leeuw
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program)), Tournament Organizer

BeNeLux

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! Today's scenario is Silver; this means today's interaction requires a more detailed knowledge of policy. It is designed for experienced L1s and L2s to answer, but it's not exclusive to them, so all of you are welcome to join in.

Here is the scenario: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2012/11/28/the-false-roman-spirit/

You are the Head Judge of a Modern GPT, run at Competitive REL. In his
precombat main phase, Anthemius casts Path to Exile on Numerian’s
Snapcaster Mage, which he puts into his otherwise empty graveyard.
Anthemius now animates his Gideon Jura and attacks with it and some
creatures. Post combat, Anthemius casts and resolves Divination, draws 2
cards, then casts Vendilion Clique, putting a card from Numerian’s hand
onto the bottom of his library.

Numerian untaps, draws a card, then activates his Moorland Haunt by exiling
Snapcaster Mage from his graveyard. Numerian puts a 1/1 Spirit token onto
the battlefield, casts Umezawa’s Jitte and equips the Spirit token. Then
Anthemius suddenly realizes that the Snapcaster should have been exiled, so
Numerian would never have been able to make a Spirit token.

They call for a Judge. After investigation, you decide that this was an
honest mistake. What is/are the infraction(s), penaltie(s) and fix(es)?

{DLS MOD: Two clarifications for those that haven't read the thread:
1) The fact that Umezawa's Jitte is banned in Modern is an oversight, please ignore it; and
2) The fact that the graveyard was empty beforehand is not intended to be relevant; please assume instead that the graveyard simply has no ‘relevant’ cards in it.}

Edited David Lyford-Tilley (Nov. 29, 2012 08:26:05 AM)

Nov. 28, 2012 10:01:21 AM

Andre Diamant
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

GPE - GRE to BOTH players. Both players receive GPE - GRE as opposed to Numerian receiving a GPE - FtMGS as he was the one who took the illegal action, however it was Anthemius who owned the effect causing the illegal action.

As far as the fix goes, I would certainly NOT back up, as far too much has happened, multiple cards have been drawn, planeswalkers have been activated, Vendillion Cliques and Umezawa's Jitte have been cast. Thus if we choose not to back up at all, the only partial fix we can make is putting cards in the incorrect zone into the correct zone, however as he exiled the Snapcaster Mage from his graveyard already, there is no partial fix to apply either.

(All information covered under IPG - 2.5)

Nov. 28, 2012 10:03:46 AM

Matt Braddock
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

The IPG gives this as an exact example, and the penalty associated:

In a situation where the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by one player, but the illegal action is taken by another player, both receive a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation. For example, if a player casts Path to Exile on an opponent’s creature and the opponent puts the creature into the graveyard, both players receive a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation infraction.

Both Anthemius and Numerian are given a Warning for GPE-GRV.

As for a fix, we either back up to the point just prior to the error, or do no fix at all. There are some exceptions, such as a card being in the incorrect zone and it being within a turn cycle. While we are within a turn cycle, the card has changed zones again (albeit to the correct zone). If we wanted to apply this acceptable partial fix, we would have to rewind some game actions, which is a partial fix we don't do (either reverse all actions, or reverse none).

My personal belief is that backing up from this point is sufficiently complex (both players have drawn cards, a card from one player's hand went to the bottom of their library, several cards have been cast), so the game state is left as is.

Edited Matt Braddock (Nov. 28, 2012 10:05:16 AM)

Nov. 28, 2012 10:49:32 AM

Robert Hinrichsen
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Foundry))

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

I think Andre's answer is correct (except that the infraction is known as GPE-GRV): there are far too many decision points passed to allow for a full back-up, and the partial backup explicitly allowed under the fixes for GRVs does not help, as the Snapcaster Mage is no longer in the wrong zone. There is, however, one wrinkle to this question which may be worth exploring.

EDIT: Scott Marshall has clarified that the following point is not relevant for the purposes of this discussion.

Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

In his precombat main phase, Anthemius casts Path to Exile on Numerian’s Snapcaster Mage, which he puts into his otherwise empty graveyard.

What does this phrase mean? If the player's graveyard and exile zone are empty, how do we distinguish one from the other? As far as I know, there are no rules which prescribe a physical space in the play area for either of the zones, and I have witnessed players adopt all sorts of different conventions in practice. Assuming N's exile zone was empty at the time of resolving Path to Exile, how then do we determine whether in fact he put the Snapcaster into the graveyard or into exile? (I am aware that, technically, the exile zone is a shared zone, so from that point of view it does not make sense to talk about N's exile zone. In practice, however, players act as though each player had their own exile zone, each keeping their own exiled cards separate from their opponents' cards.)

Is the player's subjective intention enough? I don't think so: as a matter of practice, when we look to see what zone an object is in, we don't consider what zone the player intended it to go to, but rather we look to see where the object is physically located in relation to other objects and classify it accordingly. In this case, however, there are no other similarly located objects, as the graveyard was previously empty.

Can we then look to the players' subsequent conduct regarding the object? I think ultimately that this is the correct test as it is the most practical in application: if both players are treating a face-up pile of cards as player A's graveyard, then that is what it is. The problem here is that, even if N subsequently treated the Snapcaster Mage as being in his graveyard, it is not clear that A did so. A only pointed out the problem shortly after N used his Moorland Haunt—in other words, shortly after it became relevant which zone the Snapcaster mage was in. To me this is consistent with A treating the Snapcaster as being in exile up until that point—after all, until then he had no reason to assume that the Path to Exile had been incorrectly resolved. This will depend, of course, on the circumstances of the match as a whole: if, for example, N had in previous games used a particular physical space for his graveyard and in this game put the Snapcaster in that space, then it is fairly clear that the card was put into his graveyard. If, on the other hand, this is the first game between these players, then I think that there is a reasonable argument to be made that the Snapcaster was in fact exiled during the resolution of the Path to Exile, and that the mistake occurred later when N incorrectly paid the cost of Moorland Haunt's activated ability by attempting to exile a creature card which was already in exile. If that is the case, then we are still in the realm of GPE-GRV for N, with a GPE-FtMGS for A (as he didn't speak up until other game actions had occurred), but the fix is different: in this case, it is quite simple to back up to before the Moorland Haunt activation, and I would seek permission from the Head Judge to do so.

Edited Robert Hinrichsen (Nov. 28, 2012 03:46:59 PM)

Nov. 28, 2012 10:56:28 AM

Jorge Pinto
Judge (Uncertified)

Hispanic America - South

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Is it worth noting that Umezawa's Jitte is currently a banned card in Modern?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrmodern

Nov. 28, 2012 10:57:41 AM

David de la Iglesia
Forum Moderator
Judge (Uncertified)

Europe - East

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Jorge Pinto <
forum-2018@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> Is it worth noting that Umezawa's Jitte is currently a banned card in
> Modern?
>
> http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrmodern
>
>
No, please ignore that bit.

Nov. 28, 2012 11:19:23 AM

Joep Verhoeven
Judge (Level 1 (International Judge Program))

BeNeLux

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

I think we should really zoom in on WHEN the GRV occurred.
Yes, the snapcaster was put in the graveyard when it should have been exiled, but what is the difference?
The graveyard was empty at the time (I assume so was the exile zone), so where is the graveyard?
It is reasonable to assume from Anthemius's point of view that the path has resolved correctly, since he can not distinguish Numerian's graveyard from his exile zone.

As far as I can tell there are no rules as to where your graveyard should be in relation to the exile zone

So the gamestate was unclear, not intentionally so, but unclear non the less.

I would argue that the snapcaster was exiled, you just can't tell the difference since there was no defined graveyard yet. Anthemius was not paying attention and Numerian was either not paying attention him self (forgetting for a moment his creature was exiled) or not aware the Snapcaster should have been exiled. So now the GRV occurs at a different point, namely when Numerian activates the moorland haunt, incorrectly paying for the ability.

in that case:
Numerian GPE-GRV - warning
Anthemius GPE- FtMGS- warning

fix: we can choose to backup to the point moorland haunt was activated, rewinding the Jitte and some land being tapped. In this case I would choose to do so.


Just because this case appears to be a carbon copy from the IPG example, does not mean it is.

Nov. 28, 2012 11:25:34 AM

Andre Diamant
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

While I agree that there certainly is ambiguity as to whether the Snapcaster Mage was actually put in exile after Path to Exile resolved, I feel the fact that Numerian activated the Moorland Haunt exiling the Snapcaster Mage shows that the Snapcaster Mage was in the graveyard.

If this was not the case, cheating aside, Numerian activated the Moorland Haunt, making the GPE-GRV of exiling a creature in the exile zone, which simply does not seem to make sense to me as a possibility.

P.S. Thank you for correcting my typo Robert, GPE-GRE is most certainly not a thing!

Edit: Although, I suppose that it is *possible* that the player simply forgot. In this case, I believe the only way to truly determine what happened is talk to Numerian, however make sure NOT to say that the back-up fix will be different dependent on his answer.

If he claims that the Snapcaster was in exile, and he forgot when activating Moorland Haunt, I would go ahead with the back-up fix to before the Moorland Haunt was activated, if the error was when Path to Exile resolved, no back-up.

Edited Andre Diamant (Nov. 28, 2012 11:28:15 AM)

Nov. 28, 2012 12:35:41 PM

Eric Lee
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Pacific West

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

I agree with Joep.

Even if Numerian believed that Path to Exile sends a creature to the graveyard, his graveyard and exile could be anywhere, and unless there is any kind of communication where he informs his opponent which zone Snapcaster Mage is moving to, it's very easy to see how Anthemius would not notice anything wrong, since the zones are completely identical prior to the Path to Exile resolution.

I would give a GPE-GRV - Warning, for both players, and back up to the point of the illegal action, that is the Moorland Haunt activation, and move the Snapcaster from the graveyard to exile.

Nov. 28, 2012 12:47:54 PM

Andre Diamant
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

@Eric: How are you giving both players a GPE-GRV if the problem was the activation of Moorland Haunt? If you're backing up to the Moorland Haunt activation, the GPE-GRV is only going to the player who activated the Moorland Haunt incorrectly, while the other player will receive a GPE-FtMGS

Nov. 28, 2012 12:48:40 PM

Declan Doherty
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Throwing this out:
Infractions - failure to maintain game state and GRV.
Penalties - Warning to both players. Numerian for activating an illegal ability as well as not properly exiling the snapcaster, Anthemius for not ensuring the snapcaster was exilied as it was his spell that caused it to leave the battlefield.
Fixes - It would be possible at this stage to take the turn back to the start of the pre-combat mainphase, simply removing the spirit from the battlefield, properly exiling the Snapcaster and returning the Jitte to Numerians hand. This would be a reasonable fix.

Edited Declan Doherty (Nov. 28, 2012 12:50:55 PM)

Nov. 28, 2012 12:58:34 PM

Andre Diamant
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Eastern Provinces

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

@Declan:
I believe you missed the Vendillion Clique and Divination casts.

Nov. 28, 2012 01:19:15 PM

Matt Braddock
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Robert and Joep touch on something I overlooked to begin with, that being the fact that the graveyard is empty. This could cause the ruling to be different, but I believe we need more information if we are to extract a different solution than what both myself and Andre describe in the beginning.

Assuming N's exile zone was empty at the time of resolving Path to Exile, how then do we determine whether in fact he put the Snapcaster into the graveyard or into exile?

If we are to treat this differently, we have to assume the exile zone is empty. This is not given information. If we are to make assumptions, N controlled a Snapcaster Mage and has an empty graveyard. Well, is it reasonable to think he used Snapcaster Mage's triggered ability and now there is a spell in exile? We can not assume there is a spell in N's exile zone just as we can not assume there is no spell in the exile zone. All we know is that the graveyard is empty.

We have two different outcomes based on whether or not the exile zone has anything in it to begin with. If there is no card in the exile zone, then their position is ambiguous and it is possible to assume Snapcaster Mage was actually placed in the exile zone. We would then follow Joep's solution. If there is a card in the exile zone, then their positions are defined and Snapcaster Mage was placed in the graveyard. We would then follow mine and Andre's solution.

Edited Matt Braddock (Nov. 28, 2012 01:22:04 PM)

Nov. 28, 2012 01:37:31 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Originally posted by Matt Braddock:

Robert and Joep touch on something I overlooked to begin with, that being the fact that the graveyard is empty. This could cause the ruling to be different
I apologize for the confusion caused by that wording; as it happens, “otherwise empty” is an unnecessary bit of detail.

Suffice it to say that Numerian put the Snapcaster into his Graveyard. Please don't get lost in “is it his GY or the Exile zone?!?” - that's not a part of this scenario. (Good catch, though!)

Now, carry on…

Nov. 28, 2012 01:48:21 PM

Matt Braddock
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

The False Roman Spirit - SILVER

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Suffice it to say that Numerian put the Snapcaster into his Graveyard.

Thank you for the clarification. I stand by my original post given this information.