Hello everyone,

I would like to know the right ruling of this situation.

Situation:
AP controlls Runeclaw Bear and Bident of Thassa.
AP attacked with Bear and she forgot to draw a card.
In her postcombat main phase, she cast a sorcery and the trigger is considered to be forgotten.
Before resolving it, she suddenly said “Oh, I forgot to draw.” and drew a card before NAP reacted.

We have two major opinions in Japanese leader’s discussion and come to standstill.

—

1)
AP committed Missed Trigger and Drawing Extra Cards.
AP will earn GL because of DEC, so she will lose this game independently of Missed Trigger.

—

2)
At first, judge considers that AP committed Missed Trigger(with no Warning).
As additional remedy of it, judge asks NAP whether to put the trigger on stack or not.

If NAP decides not to resolve it, AP cannot draw a card with this trigger.
This decision leads to consideration that AP drew a card illegally.
AP will earn GL because of DEC.

If NAP decides to resolve it, AP can draw a card as additional remedy.
AP had drawn a card on her own, but the situation is completely identical with the conclusion of additional remedy.
It will not be considered as DEC.

—

Any other opinion?
What is better for this situation?

I'm waiting for your answer. Thank you.

Edited Asuka Nagashima (June 27, 2014 09:57:54 AM)

This looks like textbook Drawing Extra Cards to me (w/ Game Loss unless that card happened to be known and actively revealed for some reason. Courser of Kruphix?).

They missed their trigger, so no longer have the right to draw a card from the game's perspective. But they drew anyway.

If they'd called a judge, we'd do the normal “ask the opponent about putting it on the stack”, and we can't assume the opponent would say yet (they usually won't).

I would not be comfortable trying to back-fix this either, by seeing if the opponent would let it go on the stack and end up being in the same spot. The opponent may feel pressure to put the trigger on the stack, because it's clear now that they're not just deciding whether to let them draw a card, they're effectively deciding whether their opponent loses the game. #1, I don't think we want that decision in the opponent's hands. #2, I don't want to add that kind of pressure, since they may feel like the need to let the game continue.

It's a bummer of a way to learn the lessons, but AP has hopefully learned to call a judge over when something is missed, and has learned that drawing cards is really serious business and should not be done lightly.

No knowing what the opponent is going to say, drawing cards after missing the trigger is DEC as there is no longer a valid reason to draw cards.

For the situation where the NAP chooses to put the trigger onto the stack. The end result would theoretically be the same, but now the card was drawn without giving NAP the ability to respond. Unlikely to matter much, but still an issue as the card is already in AP's hand.

This is an issue where there was a previous GPE - Missed Trigger that caused this to occur so seems like it might fit the not DEC clause of “no other Game Play Error… had been committed”. However, I don't believe this to be the case as the issue begins when the card hits the hand and there is no time to interact in between since confirmation wasn't asked for. Thus, it seems like Example B in the IPG. DEC if not confirmed by opponent.

From the annotated IPG: “An easy way to remember the correct infraction is: if the first opportunity an opponent had to possibly notice a problem was when the card hit the hand, it is DEC.”

Originally posted by Daniel Yang:

This is an issue where there was a previous GPE - Missed Trigger that caused this to occur so seems like it might fit the not DEC clause of “no other Game Play Error… had been committed”. However, I don't believe this to be the case as the issue begins when the card hits the hand and there is no time to interact in between since confirmation wasn't asked for. Thus, it seems like Example B in the IPG. DEC if not confirmed by opponent.

I think the line about no other game play error means for something like activating a Temple Bell wile there is something saying you can't activate it.

Thank you for your responses.
It seems that 1) is the better solution, doesn't it?

This reminds me a lot of a situation that arose as a knowledge pool scenario. In order to keep judge's rulings as consistent as possible, shouldn't we follow the answer at this page?

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2014/05/14/better-late-than-never/

The Knowledge Pool scenario is actually very different. In that case, the
card was revealed and there was also a GRV (losing zero life). Having that
in mind, I believe the first option is correct solution and is actually
consistent with Knowledge Pool scenario explanation - we can't have a
player “remember” a trigger in order to avoid DEC.


2014-07-22 19:53 GMT+02:00 Elliot Garner <

AP has actually made a few mistakes in this turn.

First, AP commits Missed Trigger - but it's not generally detrimental, so we can safely ignore that.

Then, AP makes two mistakes in one action - resolving a non-existent trigger (which results in a Drawing an Extra Card infraction), and does so without first confirming the draw with the opponent. Not confirming the draw isn't an infraction, but it eliminates the “If the player received confirmation from his or her opponent before drawing” clause.

And, as Adrian points out, that KP scenario was quite different.

d:^D