Hello everyone!

It's time for another Knowledge Pool scenario, the first one we will discuss on this forum. Today's scenario is Silver, this means today's interaction requires a more detailed knowledge of policy. It is designed for experienced L1s and L2s to answer, but it's not exclusive to them, so all of you are welcome to join in.


Here's the scenario:

blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2012/08/10/the-celestial-slip-of-the-devil [blogs.magicjudges.org]

At a Standard PTQ, Amun casts a Celestial Purge on Nefertiti’s Vexing Devil; as the spell resolves, Nefertiti puts the Vexing Devil in her graveyard. Amun activates Gideon Jura‘s third ability, turning him into a creature, then attacks with Gideon and all his other creatures.

Nefertiti casts a Tragic Slip, targeting Gideon Jura. Now they both realize that the Vexing Devil is in the graveyard instead of in exile, and they call a Judge. After some investigation it is determined it was an honest mistake.


What is the infraction, penalty, and fix?

Casting Tragic Slip is not illegal, it just won't have the most desirable effect. Of course, there has been an infraction, which is incorrectly resolving Celestial Purge, aka GPE - GRV. We fix the infraction by exiling the Devil, since the IPG allows this partial fix within a turn cycle. The responsibility is shared by both players, so they both get a warning for that infraction.

The game goes on with a 5/5 Gideon Jura. Play more carefully from now!

Bye and thanks!
Donato Del Giudice
L2, Italy

Edited Donato Del Giudice (Aug. 10, 2012 06:19:16 AM)

I think this would be a Warning - Game Rule Violation for both players.

Fix: Vexing Devil is moved to exile instead of the graveyard and the game is backed up to right after Purge resolved since it's been in the same turn.

Edited Sebastian Bilodeau (Aug. 10, 2012 06:20:10 AM)

Originally posted by Donato Del Giudice:

Casting Tragic Slip is not illegal, it just won't have the most desirable effect. Of course, there has been an infraction, which is incorrectly resolving Celestial Purge, aka GPE - GRV. We fix the infraction by exiling the Devil, since the IPG allows this partial fix within a turn cycle. The responsibility is shared by both players, so they both get a warning for that infraction.

I agree with this part as far as the Celestial purge is concerned, that the card is in the wrong zone, and is therefore removed. However, I'm not sure with the Tragic Slip. The morbid on slip is active whenever a creature dies, or is placed into a Graveyard from the battlefield. Vexing Devil was placed in a graveyard from the battlefield. Although this was incorrect, it's not backed up, simply moved to the correct zone, does this undo the fact that it ‘died’?

Sean, while this may or may not be part of someone's solution if they do or
do not back up, I'd like to point out that this is an EXCELLENT point. Good
secondary thinking!

-Eric Shukan
L3
Woburn, MA

—– Original Message —–
I agree with this part as far as the Celestial purge is concerned, that the
card is in the wrong zone, and is therefore removed. However, I'm not sure
with the Tragic Slip. The morbid on slip is active whenever a creature dies,
or is placed into a Graveyard from the battlefield. Vexing Devil was placed
in a graveyard from the battlefield. Although this was incorrect, it's not
backed up, simply moved to the correct zone, does this undo the fact that it
'died'?

Celestial Purge was resolved incorrectly, which is a GPE-GRV. Since Amun controlled the spell, but Nefertiti carried out the incorrect action, both players receive a GRV Warning; no FtMGS Warnings here.

I feel that the situation is sufficiently simply to rewind, so I'd back up to the point of the mistake; Tragic Slip goes back to Nefertiti's hand, all creatures “un-attack”, Gideon Jura “un-animates”, Vexing Devil is exiled, and we go from there.

Amun's decision to animate and attack obviously wasn't based on where the Devil went to; all that mattered to him was that the Devil was out of the way of his attackers. That leaves casting Tragic Slip as the only decision made based on the incorrect game state, and since the mistake was spotted pretty much immediately after this decision, I feel comfortable enough with backing up here.

I am strongly in favor of a rewind in this situation.

Although there have been many game actions, only the last one was a real decision point. In my book, this is simple enough for a rewind. We return Tragic Slip to the hand, untap all attacking creatures, return Gideon to his pre-activation state (visually the same), then exile Vexing Devil. Both Players get Warning - GRV because it was Amun's Celestial Purge and Nefertiti's Vexing Devil that together created the infraction.

I believe this is the cleanest solution to the problem, since the alternative is a mess and is likely to cause Amun to throw a fit:

Were I not going to rewind, I would hand out the same penalties and leave the game state as-is, allowing the Tragic Slip to resolve as -13/-13. If we do not rewind the game, we do not undo Morbid by applying the partial fix of exiling Vexing Devil from the Graveyard. Even if that creature Dying was wrong, it did happen. Both players acknowledged it and took game actions following that error. The current game state is legal, and we would only confuse players and muddle the situation by exiling the Vexing Devil and then saying that Morbid happens anyway, which is the “correct” IPG partial fix non-rewind outcome.

My interpretation of the Additional Remedy paragraph of GPE - GRV is this:

If you can fix the situation with a partial backup (i.e. the 4 exceptions), then fix it that way.
If you can't do the above, but you can fix the situation with a simple backup, then fix it that way.
If not, don't do anything.

So in my opinion, you don't have a choice as to whether you want to partial fix or backup. If you can partial fix, then do it. And in this case, I think you can partial fix, so that's what we'll do.

The Vexing Devil is exiled, but Morbid is “on” because a card did actually go to the graveyard. And GRVs all around.

(To be fair, I think the fact that Morbid is on doesn't make sense, but I would rule this way to keep the IPG consistent.)

Jas–Look at that! I don't even need to sign my name anymore :)

EDIT: “Vexing Devil” is exiled, not the spell currently on the stack :)

Edited Jason Wong (Aug. 10, 2012 07:07:44 AM)

Originally posted by Sean Roffey:

The morbid on slip is active whenever a creature dies, or is placed into a Graveyard from the battlefield. Vexing Devil was placed in a graveyard from the battlefield. Although this was incorrect, it's not backed up, simply moved to the correct zone, does this undo the fact that it ‘died’?

Eventually, I think this is the point where this scenario wants to end. Actually, this reasoning sounds to me veeeeeeery convoluted: probably in both cases you are going to dissatisfy one of the player, so I think we should not take TWO uncorrect actions to make one right. Just make right the most that is allowed (exiling the Devil).

Since David is the mind behind this, I figure we are in one of his “Sea Gate Oracle” schemes… :PPP

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

I believe this is the cleanest solution to the problem, since the alternative is a mess and is likely to cause Amun to throw a fit:

And yet if you do a complete backup, Amun is probably not going to activate his Gideon this turn in the hopes that he can blank the Tragic Slip. Will Nefertiti throw a fit then? You can't make players happy all the time, nor should that be a consideration in the fix.

Originally posted by Jason Wong:

My interpretation of the Additional Remedy paragraph of GPE - GRV is this:

If you can fix the situation with a partial backup (i.e. the 4 exceptions), then fix it that way.
If you can't do the above, but you can fix the situation with a simple backup, then fix it that way.
If not, don't do anything.

So in my opinion, you don't have a choice as to whether you want to partial fix or backup. If you can partial fix, then do it. And in this case, I think you can partial fix, so that's what we'll do.

I find that I disagree. The first sentence under additional remedy states that the covering judge may ask the HJ for a backup anytime it wouldn't be too complicated. The second paragraph starts off with the conditions under which we won't do a full backup (“If not caught within a reasonable time frame” etc.), and THEN specifies the four things that we may fix even if we're not backing up.

I'm with Sebastian R. and Joshua F. - let's do a complete backup. Even though Amun is partially at fault, allowing the Tragic Slip to take out Gideon when nothing should have died this turn feels very wrong, and we have the authority to prevent that wrong from happening.

Edited Dan DiTursi (Aug. 10, 2012 07:51:13 AM)

I'm in agreement with those who want to rewind (or at least talking to the HJ about one).

This doesn't look overly complicated to me. Is “sufficiently complex” actually defined anywere, or is that something that we use our best judgement on?

Though I don't think there is any disagreement on this point, for the sake of completeness I say that both players get Warnings for Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation.

As for the fix, I think the best approach is to analyse the text of the rules logically as follows:
In the “Additional Remedy” section of the GRV infraction, we first learn that the head judge has a discretion to authorise a complete backup if (and presumably only if) “the error was discovered within a time frame in which a player could reasonably be expected to notice the error and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game.”
Alternatively, if those conditions are not met, we are instructed to leave the game state as is with the exception of several partial fixes, which seem to me not to be optional in the cases where they would apply. The language is mandatory (e.g. “the player makes a legal choice,” “the player draws a card,” rather than “the judge may have the player…”). The relevant provision here is “If an object is in the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn cycle of the error, put the object in the correct zone.”

To me, the facts of the scenario do not meet the initial conditions for a full backup. Whilst I think they do meet the time frame condition, I think that A's knowledge of N's Tragic Slip means that backing up would be disruptive to the course of the game–assuming I interpret that phrase correctly to mean that allowing a player to re-evaluate decisions based on knowledge he ought not to have had is to disrupt how the game otherwise would have played out.

We must therefore leave the gamestate as is–including leaving Tragic Slip on the stack targeting Gideon, with the exception that we follow the partial fix of exiling Vexing Devil. I agree with Jason that, if we do not do a complete backup, then we have no choice but to apply the partial fix where appropriate.

The last question is whether Morbid is “on” or not. In equity there is a maxim that “the court will look upon as done that which ought to have been done,” which, if it were to apply here, would mean that, as the devil ought to have been exiled, we would treat it as having done so, and Morbid would therefore be “off.” I think that this is the most natural and intuitive result, but in Magic we have no such maxim, and the devil was in fact (albeit erroneously) put into the graveyard from play. I therefore think we cannot escape the conclusion that Morbid is “on,” especially at Competitive REL. If this were Regular REL, I have no hesitation in saying that this is a scenario where I would “deviate like hell” to achieve an intuitive result.

Edited Robert Hinrichsen (Aug. 10, 2012 09:18:26 AM)

Originally posted by Riki Hayashi:

Joshua Feingold
I believe this is the cleanest solution to the problem, since the alternative is a mess and is likely to cause Amun to throw a fit:

And yet if you do a complete backup, Amun is probably not going to activate his Gideon this turn in the hopes that he can blank the Tragic Slip. Will Nefertiti throw a fit then? You can't make players happy all the time, nor should that be a consideration in the fix.

When I can pick between two IPG-supported options, I will try to pick the one most consistent with what both players will feel is “fair,” although one will usually end up on the short end of the stick relative to the current game state.

My experience is that players want the game to turn out in the way it would have all if the rules had been followed to start with. In many cases, the prescribed Partial Fix gets close enough that just using that is fine. In this case, however, the Partial Fix leads to a strange half-way state that is neither “close enough” nor wrong in the way the players themselves had created. In such a situation, I think rewinds are best when possible, followed by leaving the game as-is. If the game has to be a mess, let it at least be the mess the players made themselves.

And if Gideon never attacks for the rest of the game to avoid Tragic Slip, Nefertiti is probably going to be pretty happy with that result anyway.

A thought occurred to me which may introduce a further element of complexity. Under normal circumstances, what kind of information is the knowledge that Morbid is “on” or not? The fact that a creature has died seems like it fits into the definition of public information, which includes: “Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.” On the other hand, keeping track of Morbid seems like the type of strategic skill we would want to preserve by classifying it as derived information. Is there a distinction (in terms of type of information) between the question “has this specific creature died this turn?” (which definitely seems like public info to me) and “have any creatures died this turn?” (which seems like it could be derived, because it “may require some skill or calculation to determine”)?

If it is public, then there's no problem in this case. If it is derived, however, and we apply the remedy I suggested earlier, do we tell the players that morbid is “on” or do we remain silent and wait until they ask “so did the Vexing Devil die?” or wait until they resolve the Tragic Slip incorrectly and then step in with another set of warnings?