There is no way that I can justify a backup here. While we are in the same turn, too many game actions have occurred, and we have passed too many decision points. We generally do not want a back up to cause the game to be significantly different, or cause different decisions to be made, that is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

Do we ever back a game up because a player made a legal action that does not have the desired result? Think of the oblivion ring situation we have all heard, player casts oblivion ring, and the only legal target ends up being one of their own creatures. Do we back up here? No! In this case should be back up because the tragic slip will now not kill the creature - NO! It is both players fault in a sense that the vexing devil went to the graveyard, but the creature should not have gone there in the first place, in the turn no creatures have actually died, no matter what zone the devil ended up in.

The IPG does allow for a partial fix, and that is to put the Vexing Devil in the correct zone (exile). In the way of penalties the IPG states that when one player takes an action that causes another player to perform an illegal action, both players receive GPE - GRV, and this is no different.

Play on, be more careful next time…


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As for morbid, it is always free information, just like “playing a land” is public information. There is never anything derived about which creature died this turn. Either way, as a judge the question is, did a creature die, no, because a creature never should have went to the graveyard in the first place. Think of the philosophy of why the partial fix is allowed here…

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If you are thinking about a rewind, what is better, having the NAP lose the tragic slip, or the knowledge that the tragic slip is in the NAP hand after rewind. Gideon attacks either way…

Edited Amanda Swager (Aug. 10, 2012 09:10:44 AM)

Originally posted by Michael Swager:

did a creature die, no, because a creature never should have went to the graveyard in the first place. Think of the philosophy of why the partial fix is allowed here…

“700.6. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.” It is used only when referring
to creatures.”

I don't feel like a judge walking over and placing a card into the correct zone as a partial fix changes the details of what happened prior to the judge call. The Vexing Devil was put from the battlefield into the graveyard, meaning it died, and as we all know

"Morbid — That creature gets -13/-13 until end of turn instead if a creature died this turn.“

If we want to erase the incorrect action from having occurred, then we need to perform a full backup to before it occurred and make the action happen correctly. The relevant portion of IPG 3.6:

”• If an object is in the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn
cycle of the error, put the object in the correct zone."

It says nothing about pretending what should have happened did happen, and nothing about undoing the fact that the card was put into the incorrect in the first place. It seems like a big deviation to pretend the Vexing Devil was in exile the entire time.

In Summation: Either we must back the game up all the way, or we partial fix by moving the vexing devil, without turning morbid off. If I were Head Judge for this, I probably wouldn't approve the rewind.

I am with Sebastian R. here. There is GRV and I think we send the wrong message of we don't backup to the point of the infraction.

In my inexperienced opinion, it's the casting of Tragic Slip that makes a backup completely untenable.

Making a choice to activate Gideon tips it, but it's still not too hard to rewind. Making a choice to cast a Slip, revealing information about a player's hand, that's a bit too far. Even though it is within the turn cycle, I believe a rewind is too much here. Move the Devil to Exile, morbid is satisfied.

(I did initially think it was FtMGS for the person casting Celestial Purge, but Mr. Swager is correct that both players are responsible for the GPE-GRV, so both get a Warning.)

(EDIT: Level 1 Judge, waiting for the app to update properly…)

Edited Wesley Holland (Aug. 11, 2012 11:28:57 AM)

Thanks to everybody who participated in this vivid discussion! Consensus was quickly reached on which infraction has been committed: It's a Game Rule Violation. Vexing Devil should have been put into exile, not into the graveyard; because the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by Amun, but the illegal action is taken by Nefertiti, they both receive a Warning for Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation. Donato was very fast in pointing this out.

Backing up is something the Head Judge can decide to do, but is not an ideal solution, as Robert Hinrichsen explained. A lot of decisions have been made since the error occured (activate Gideon Jura, attack with everything, cast Tragic Slip) and this probably will affect the course of the game.

When not backing up (which isn't perfect either), we don't apply any kind of partial fixes, but the IPG provides 3 exceptions to this rule: “If an object is in the wrong zone, and it is within a turn cycle of the error, put the permanent in the correct zone.” Vexing Devil should be put into exile from the graveyard.
Now, if Tragic Slip resolves, it checks wether a creature has died this turn. This was the main discussion point! Although Vexing Devil was put into a graveyard, it didn't technically die, it just was put there accidentally. So Morbid does not apply and Tragic Slip only gives Gideon -1/-1 until end of turn, just as Donato stated.

So, what is our final verdict? That there are situations like these that don't have a clear best way to handle them! You as Head Judge should decide on the spot whether you want to back up or apply a partial fix, and whatever you decide, it is correct and justified by the IPG. Use your judgment, that's what you are a Judge for. Consensus was also reached among the Knowledge Pool team; most of us would not back up, because of the number of decisions that have affected the game.

See you soon in the next edition of the Knowledge Pool!