Hi, i have a situation currently ongoing with an local store that i would like an official statement on

Back story: One of our local games stores hosts a modern league each Tuesday. At the end of each season the 16 best players in the league plays an competitive tournament with an larger prize pool. Today the store posted a competition on their Facebook page where you could “guess” who will win the top 16 and win prizes. The players in the top 16 are also allowed to guess who wins, but they can't receive any prizes.

Questions: How far off is this to betting? (all prizes are coming from the organizers of the league. so no one is actually betting any money)

People are also discussing “bets” in the comment section about who might win/lose certain games. No bets have been placed, but it's not far from it. When do we draw a line on what is a bet?

Edited Alexander Johansson (May 7, 2015 06:40:50 PM)

It sounds like what's often called a “fantasy league”, where you try to pick winners and get points based on how well your picks finish. It's not uncommon, it's probably illegal in some jurisdictions, fine in others.

It sounds like there's no entry fee to compete in this contest? If that's the case, then it's not really a problem - other than perception. Even without an entry fee, some will see it as sanctioned gambling.

And, speaking of perception - it sounds like some players *perceive* that it's now OK to wager on the outcome. (That definitely is NOT allowed.)

If this occurred in my area, I'd chime in with some relevant quotes from policy, re: wagering, and then make sure to keep my distance. I won't participate, even if there's no entry fee; I won't offer to assist with tracking, prizes, etc.

d:^D

Originally posted by Alexander Johansson:

When do we draw a line on what is a bet?

My personal stance is something has to be on the line of significant worth. Why? Most definition of “bet” involve the word “risk.”

“I bet this goes to 3 games” probably means “I'm guessing or pretty sure that this will go to 3 games.”
Nothing is on the line. Not really a bet.

“I bet you a high 5 they win” probably means “I hope this person wins and will be excited to celebrate if they do.” Those can be given away gratis forever. Not really a bet.

“I bet $5 that control wins” could mean “I'm using an arbitrary number to express that I think strongly about control winning.” But it could also be reasonably interpreted that “I want $5 if they win and/or I will give away $5 if they don't win” requires the same original statement. That's way too risky for me.

It doesn't have to be tangible or monetary. “Loser of this bet has to moon somebody” is significant (and inappropriate or harmless depending on environment). Embarrassment, time, etc are things that can be risky.

I think recognition for getting close to the right answer could be reasonably significant. If it's in fun then you can suggest that the store really emphasize that the point is for fun and not on making any statements about who is the best at evaluating skill.

I think “Who was closest to the actual answer? Raj? That's cool. Nice going Raj!” is acceptable.

I actually got into a rather lengthy discussion regarding this with a few people recently…

Originally posted by IPG 4.4. Unsporting Conduct — Bribery and Wagering:

Definition
Wagering occurs when a player or spectator at a tournament places or offers to place a bet on the outcome of a tournament, match or any portion of a tournament or match. The wager does not need to be monetary, nor is it relevant if a player is not betting on his or her own match.

MTR 1.11 Spectators
Any person physically present at a tournament and not in any other category above is a spectator.

This would indicate by omission that TO's, Judges, Scorekeepers, and anyone not present at the event are permitted to wager.

Obviously the first 3 fall under the, “You know better…” clause (or it might actually be documented somewhere else).

The latter (person not present), seems pretty clear that betting online/offsite/etc is A-Okay. Is that intended?

Originally posted by MTR 1.3:

Individuals who are not judges at a tournament are acting as spectators in any match they are not playing in.

Originally posted by Adam Zakreski:

The latter (person not present), seems pretty clear that betting online/offsite/etc is A-Okay. Is that intended?

I'm curious about the answer to this question. I'm fine with the “discourage, and don't participate” procedure from Scott, but if I actually have players asking if there could be repercussions, can I tell them yes or no?

And the Magic Judge Code prohibits judges from wagering on events, so it
sounds like we're covered on all the Judge/Scorekeeper/TO fronts.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Jonas Drieghe <
forum-18154-1da9@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

> *MTR 1.3*
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Originally posted by Joe Klopchic:

Adam Zakreski
The latter (person not present), seems pretty clear that betting online/offsite/etc is A-Okay. Is that intended?

I'm curious about the answer to this question. I'm fine with the “discourage, and don't participate” procedure from Scott, but if I actually have players asking if there could be repercussions, can I tell them yes or no?

Please discourage all forms of wagering involving Magic. If you learn of such (outside of your events), you can pass it along to Customer Service. And, of course, if you learn of wagering at your events, the IPG and MTR are fairly clear.

d:^D