Hi there,

Yesterday there came up a somewhat “funny” scenario where one of our players in a Legacy tournament went “Fetch, Shock, Thoughtseize..” as this is a joke we use to do.. but his opponent went “Ok, i show you” and lays down his cards..
The strange thing is the guy saying “.. Thoughtseize .. ” wasnt even playing a black deck so he doesnt have thoughtseize in his hand obviously..

Then we discussed, what happens now?

They both had a laughter about it and handled it as “ah shit, i shouldnt have shown me my cards so fast.. ” but im still wondering how would this be handlet?

We have a small Judge Whatsapp group where i brought up the situation and even in there we had multiple solutions.
it went from “its your fault you show your hand..” to “DQ - Cheating”..

As i find the situation hard to deal with im just hoping for more input so i can clear my head..

What would you have done on a competitive Level?

For the person who suggested the DQ: what rule was broken, and why would they think there is intent to gain an advantage instead of just a joke?

It seems the active player took the legal action of bluffing about hidden information, and his opponent fell for it and took the legal action of revealing his hand. No infraction, no penalty, continue playing.

In my oppinion no rule has broken, but in this case “funny player” must notice its a joke and no take any additional actions other than seeing hand.
Really it's your fault show your hand, but if the other player takes notes before notice its a joke then he falls in DQ - Cheating. He's taking advantage permitting an irregular situacion and he knows its

Edited Jose Miguel Sanchez Navarro (Nov. 20, 2015 04:21:27 AM)

Originally posted by Jose Miguel Sanchez Navarro:

He's taking advantage permitting an irregular situacion and he knows its

Why is this an irregular situaiton? Is it a CPV to say some card names? Because every player is allowed to show cards he can currently see to his opponent. But I believe we already had a long discussion about more or less the same, here are some links:Vendilion Clique's ability - choosing the target Definition of “choices” in cases of Bluffing vs. Using Shortcuts Thoughtseize out of a non-exiting Swamp
The discussions are a little bit old but I believe nothing to big has change in that part. My takeaway from all this was “Don't assume something might happen, because that might be bad for you”

Not quite the same discussion I think.

Let's change the scenario a little:

I have no thougtseize and don't actually play them. I drop a fetch and say “fetch, shock, thougtseize”. When my opponent show me his hand, I write down the content, drop a tundra on the table and cast brainstorm, telling my opponent “ I just said thougtseize, I didn't say I played it or that I target you”.

What would you do as the judge?

Oh contraire mon frere.

Just to clarify some things about the Whatsapp disscusion we had on this topic.

First of all the situation described here was not what was causing me to shout DQ ;) As Sandro knows I stated that the described situation, and thanks to twitch-stream I was even an eye-witness to it, would have been a GRV at the most. But if we assume that the player has done this intentionaly we are talking about something completely different.

what rule has been violated:

MTR 3.12 Hidden information

“Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them,…”

If the player A announces “Thoughtseize”, while shuffeling, any player will think that player A will cast a Thoughtseize after finding the Land he is looking for. Even if not mentioned as an example in 4.2 I assume that player A is using a shortcut to fasten the pace of the game. Since generally thoughtseize and other discards spells are used to let the opponent discard a card, the default to think that he wants to target player B is comprehensible.

If all this is done intentionally, without having a thoughtseize of course, we have a violation of MTR 3.12 and therefor a violation of IPG 4.8. Unsporting Conduct — Cheating.

Kind regards

Oliver ;)

Edited Oliver Blank (Nov. 20, 2015 07:14:35 AM)

MTR 3.12 Hidden information
Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them, but are not required to inform opponents who are accidentally revealing hidden information.

I believe when you read this in context that it's referring to physical activity being used to get sight of hidden information. Otherwise we've just excluded buffing and reading opponent's actions from legal play and I don't think that's what we want.

That said my read here is that the player has illegally announced a spell. If ‘Fetch, Shock…’ is how they've announced the activation of a fetch land and the casting of a shock, I believe they've established this behaviour. In this case I'd believe a GRV has been committed, and if this was done to gain advantage then I think we're looking at cheating.

Here's a somewhat similar case from a while ago: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/14856/

Something very important to keep in mind here is, why did player A mention the Thoughtseize?
What was the purpose of announcing that card?
There certainly are subtleties to the game of magic and bluffing; however, there fine lines in what is allowed and what is not allowed. Things to keep in mind here when the player explains why they announced the card, what was their intention?
What did they expect to happen, or expect their opponent to do?
If they expected their opponent to reveal their hand, were they aware that announcing a spell they do not have or intend to cast is not a legal action?
Again there are many subtleties to Magic and information can be given out in a multitude of ways by various actions and statements. So when exploring a scenario we want to keep those in mind and flesh out as many possibilities to really understand what is going on. Just some additional food for thought on this scenario.

I'm pretty sure that people are being a bit liberal with the meaning of “bluffing” here. If the “fetch shock thoughtseize” is a common joke at your store then that's one thing and one would need to judge based on specific context and is probably unlikely to be a problem.

On the other hand, if I'm at a GP or other event and a player instigates a shortcut implying he is casting thoughtseize, with deliberate intention to con his opponent into revealing hidden information, I'm going to have some very serious words with that player and I'm probably going to get him for cheating. Because frankly, it's an obscure corner case but saying you're going to shortcut to cast a spell isn't “bluffing”. Saying you HAVE a thoughtseize is bluffing. Casting it and allowing it to resolve is not.

As far as I understand the situation: Saying anything about a future game state is hidden information so you can lie about it without risking an infraction. Since in this scenario the player was still fetching the casting of the Thoughtseize was in the future so I really don't see any infraction here, doesn't matter whether he really has the spell or not. Not good sportmanship, but not illegal as well. If this is wrong, please tell me, I would like to stop players playing extreme mind games like this.

Another thought: Even if he really did an illegal announcment of a spell, would you DQ him for cheating if he believed that it was a legal bluff? Did he really knowingly break the rules?

While you can bluff with hidden information you can't lie to create a
short cut. Announcing the spell you'll play after resolving a fetch is
a common short cut and one that I encourage and use regularly.

It's pretty hard for a random player to understand that “Fetch, Shock,
Thourghtseize” is a running joke and not an attempt to announce a
short cut. Giving a GRV is appropriate unless the player was doing it
intentionally (typical Cheating variant).

I don't see how a player can think that bluffing the playing of a
spell is legal. There is a world of difference between trying to
convince your opponent that a particular card is in your hand versus
convincing them the spell is on the stack.

But don't get me wrong, most of the times this is likely to occur it
will be an honest mistake and miscommunication.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:24 AM, Markus Dietrich
<forum-22889-81be@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> As far as I understand the situation: Saying anything about a future game
> state is hidden information so you can lie about it without risking an
> infraction. Since in this scenario the player was still fetching the casting
> of the Thoughtseize was in the future so I really don't see any infraction
> here, doesn't matter whether he really has the spell or not. Not good
> sportmanship, but not illegal as well. If this is wrong, please tell me, I
> would like to stop players playing extreme mind games like this.
>
> Another thought: Even if he really did an illegal announcment of a spell,
> would you DQ him for cheating if he believed that it was a legal bluff? Did
> he really knowingly break the rules?
>
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–
Gareth Pye - blog.cerberos.id.au
Level 2 MTG Judge, Melbourne, Australia
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”

I would see it as a Shortcut, if the player plays a fetch and places a thoughtseize next to it or “in the stack zone” on the table.

So the Shortcut is to fetch for a shock-swamp and cast thoughtseize.

When he only plays a fetch land or at least nothing, I would say like Markus.
Shady Communications but I think legal.

He is allowed to lie about future game states.

Originally posted by Gareth Pye:

While you can bluff with hidden information you can't lie to create a
short cut. Announcing the spell you'll play after resolving a fetch is
a common short cut and one that I encourage and use regularly.

It's pretty hard for a random player to understand that “Fetch, Shock,
Thourghtseize” is a running joke and not an attempt to announce a
short cut. Giving a GRV is appropriate

This might be a common shortcut, but can we assume a shortcut which is not in the MTR to determine whether he comitted GRV? Besides this scenario seems to be game 1 (otherwise NAP should know that AP doesn't play Swamps) so there is no time to establish a common behaviour for this.

Originally posted by Gareth Pye:

unless the player was doing it intentionally (typical Cheating variant).

I don't see how a player can think that bluffing the playing of a
spell is legal. There is a world of difference between trying to
convince your opponent that a particular card is in your hand versus
convincing them the spell is on the stack.

As far is I understood, AP is not trying to bluff the putting a spell on the stack but that, while fetching, he is going to find a Swampshock and afterwards going to play a Thoughtseize from his hand. So it is basically bluffing him into believing Thoughtseize is in his hand and he'll be able to do that.

But don't get me wrong, most of the times this is likely to occur it
will be an honest mistake and miscommunication.

Originally posted by Gareth Pye:

While you can bluff with hidden information you can't lie to create a
short cut. Announcing the spell you'll play after resolving a fetch is
a common short cut and one that I encourage and use regularly.

For me, saying “I'll play Thoughtseize after I fetch” is no different than “I'll Lightning Bolt you after I fetch”. Consider the following scenario:

A is at 3 life, B is playing burn. B says “I'll Lightning Bolt you next turn”, A says “OK you win” and scoops. B doesn't even have a lightning bolt in his hand.

It's not a suggested shortcut. It's a bluff, it's the prediction of a future game state, it's a lie about hidden information. If the player shows the Thoughtseize (puts it on the stack) before fetching, then I agree, it's fine (be careful though, there could be problems - as already linked my Markus in this topic). But lying about casting a specific spell later in the game is not an illegal action.

Edited Tobias Rolle (Nov. 21, 2015 09:06:28 AM)