Sylvan Library
Telepathy

I have a Sylvan Library and my opponent has Telepathy so I'm playing with my hand face-up in front of me on the table.

I use various spells and abilities during my upkeep to draw cards and clumsily I forget to keep them separate from the cards I had as the turn started, partly because I think that it's unnecessary because everyone can see what I started with and what I gained this turn (or deduce it).

When I go to resolve the Sylvan Library trigger, I put back two of the cards that I know that I had drawn during my upkeep, even though they got mixed in with the ones that weren't.

1) am I allowed to do that?
2) would it matter if my opponent or a spectator or a judge or video coverage could verify what was drawn?
3) what if my opponent claims that he can't remember what cards I started the turn with?

Edited Todd Bussey (Dec. 11, 2015 04:59:09 PM)

This is not really a game rules question, and therefore not something that really needs an ‘O’fficial answer; I'll move it along to the Competitive REL area.

In terms of general philosophy, I'd start by saying that it's on the Sylvan Library player to prove that the cards they put back were drawn this turn, and not on their opponent to prove that they weren't. I'm happy to investigate a situation like this, and if the players both agree that a card was drawn this turn, I'd allow it to be put back. However, if the players can't agree on what cards were drawn this turn, I wouldn't feel too bad about ruling that the Library player can't put back any cards. Library players understand that they must keep cards drawn this turn separate until they've made their decisions, most of them execute the process correctly every time.

I'm also not inclined to spend too much time arguing about this interaction between a card that sees very little play, and a card that sees absolutely no play.

I would state that when the cards become revealed due to Telepathy the hand becomes a “revealed zone”. It is therefore on both players to ensure that the contents of the revealed zone is consistent. Based on that:

1) Yes, you are allowed to do that. You draw the cards physically, therefore you are allowed to add them to your hand, as with any other drawn cards. The fishy part with Sylvan Library comes when the cards' identites aren't able to be confirmed by the opponent before putting them back, which is why this is not common practise. However, based on the above comment, that the cards are revealed and hence their identities can easily be confirmed, I would say there is no problem here.

2) This question doesn't need direct answering due to the above answer, but one point I would like to make is that video coverage is never to be used in determining the rules validity of a play. The reason for this is that it presents an unfair advantage (usually advantage) to players who have on-camera feature matches as opposed to those who do not. Case in point, the exact question you're asking here.

3) As usual, call a judge :P But seriously, if the cards are revealed, then it's your opponent's fault for not remembering the game state. They ought to work on that. This is consistent with the way I tend to handle other questions concerning public zones, such as “have I played a land this turn?” (if AP thinks they haven't and NAP isn't sure, then I tend to rule in favor of AP; in this case AP thinks they are returning legal cards with Library and NAP isn't sure, so by the same logic I rule in favor of AP).

@Dan Collins: Minor note: Sylvan Library is played a nontrivial amount in Legacy, and even more in EDH. I wouldn't call it “very little play” by any stretch.

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

I would state that when the cards become revealed due to Telepathy the hand becomes a “revealed zone”. It is therefore on both players to ensure that the contents of the revealed zone is consistent.

CR 400.2 Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see the cards' faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to be revealed.

So depending on if the opponent can verify what cards where drawn you can put them back if the opponent does not too bad for you you draw 3 lose 8 life

Originally posted by Lyle Waldman:

@Dan Collins: Minor note: Sylvan Library is played a nontrivial amount in Legacy, and even more in EDH. I wouldn't call it “very little play” by any stretch.

Yes, however continuous effects that modify hand being revealed are not common in competitive REL play.

We already hold players that Brainstorm & Library in the same draw step responsible for keeping track of cards (http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/9495/?page=1#post-58705), this is effectively the same scenario since Simon pointed out correctly CR 400.2

As noted in that thread that Jeff linked (thanks, Jeff!), it remains the player's responsibility to keep separate any cards drawn this turn, in order to comply with Sylvan Library's rules text.

Is Telepathy (et al) an interesting twist? Yep, sure is!
Does that change anything? Nope - except it makes it more likely a player will fail to meet his or her responsibility, and then we're back to my basic point.

@Callum - oddly enough, I was planning to provide exactly this ‘O’fficial answer, in the Rules Q&A forum… :)

d:^D