We've had some local Level 1 discussions on this and can't reach a consensus, so I thought I'd ask for views here.

I have a Chalice of the Void in play with X = 1. I cast Pithing Needle and pass priority to my opponent, who having suffered its effect in a previous game sacrifices a number of artifacts to their Arcbound Ravager and passes back to me. I then say “Pithing Needle is countered by Chalice” and put it in the graveyard.

Have I done anything wrong ? Seems to come down to whether the trigger needs to be acknowledged on triggering or resolution.

It would appear to me that it only effects the visible game state when it removes Pithing Needle from the stack and puts in in the graveyard, and as such only needs to be acknowledged then, but others think it should be pointed out on triggering.

Discussion was around IPG and competitive hence, posting here.

Edited Graham Hopkins (Feb. 22, 2016 11:47:03 AM)

Let's have a look at the good old MIPG!

Missed Trigger, Definition: A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

The first visible thing to happen is to put Pithing Needle in the graveyard instead of onto the battlefield as it tries to resolve. I do not see any reason to point it out before that. Nice Jedi mind trick, and as far as I'm concerned, perfectly legal. Not a very nice thing to do, and I might frown upon it at Regular REL… but since this is the Competitive forum, let's stick to what the rules allow and disallow.

Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

Let's have a look at the good old MIPG!

Missed Trigger, Definition: A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

The first visible thing to happen is to put Pithing Needle in the graveyard instead of onto the battlefield as it tries to resolve. I do not see any reason to point it out before that. Nice Jedi mind trick, and as far as I'm concerned, perfectly legal. Not a very nice thing to do, and I might frown upon it at Regular REL… but since this is the Competitive forum, let's stick to what the rules allow and disallow.

Isn't the first visible fashion of the game state that the other players saccs his board?

Or another situation:

I have Chalice@1 on board, can i cast Thoughtseize and after he shows me his hand say “Its countered..”

Where do i go wrong with my thinking..?

The definition is talking about "the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion“. Not ”the first time the board changes".

> Isn't the first visible fashion of the game state that the other players
saccs his board?

At the point he sacs his board, Pithing Needle and the Chalice trigger are
both still on the stack. Nothing illegal has occurred, the trigger doesn't
need to be announced until the trigger has a visible impact on the game
state.

> I have Chalice@1 on board, can i cast Thoughtseize and after he shows me
his hand say “Its countered..”

We should probably keep it to one corner case at a time, else we'll confuse
ourselves.

This is a legal bluff, and Dustin did a fine job of explaining why.

d:^D

The definition is talking about “the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion“. Not ”the first time the board changes”.

At the point he sacs his board, Pithing Needle and the Chalice trigger are
both still on the stack. Nothing illegal has occurred, the trigger doesn't
need to be announced until the trigger has a visible impact on the game
state.

What is a visible fashion of the game?

I really dont see how saccing away alot of creatures can't be visible…

Has it something to do because the trigger itself (and only the trigger!) needs a visible impact and not the whathappensif thing?

I think this cases depend in how much the player who wants to gain a legal advantage rides the priority and his vocabulary.
After the spell is cast there is a priority instance where the chalice is triggered. Then until this instance is finished and no wording about passing priority is done the chalice trigger should be resolved. Something after this should be sanctioned as missed trigger, forgetting on purpose.

Originally posted by Sandro Carlucci:

Has it something to do because the trigger itself (and only the trigger!) needs a visible impact and not the whathappensif thing?

Exactly! Let's have a look at that single sentence from the MIPG again:

MIPG
A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it (THIS REFERS TO THE TRIGGER!) would affect the game in a visible fashion.

The opponent has the right to act in response to Pithing Needle. He has
done so. As long as AP doesn't attempt to put Needle in play, he hasn't
missed his trigger.
On Feb 22, 2016 2:12 PM, “Cristóbal Vigar Guerrero” <

Gotcha!

Thanks!

Thanks for the responses. Agree it may not be a nice thing thing to do and I agree with Dustin re regular REL. I'll feed back to my local group.