Hi there everyone,

I was posed the following question on the MTGJudge subreddit (shameless plug) and after answering it asked a few other judges (approx. 10). This led to a distinct split of answers, 6-4 in the case of “the original permanent”:

“If Soul Tithe is moved in response to its trigger (by Autumn-Tail, Kitsune Sage, for example), does it care about the original permanent or the permanent it is now enchanting?”

The closest rules citation I can find to support either argument is 608.2i:

“608.2i. If an ability's effect refers to a specific untargeted object that has been previously referred to by that ability's cost or trigger condition, it still affects that object even if the object has changed characteristics.”

The argument for the new permanent I believe is that the definition of “it” is not locked in until the ability resolves, at which point it will be enchanted to a new permanent.

I would appreciate some feedback and if possible an official answer. It feels to me and a few others that this rule isn't specifically designed to fit this scenario. Thoughts?

- Jack.

Soul Tithe will refer to the original permanent.

Because its trigger condition includes an object, that object is the one that the trigger will see. It is determined when the ability triggers; the trigger doesn't care about the enchantment or what it enchants. “It” cannot be determined upon resolution, otherwise, the trigger wouldn't know when to trigger in the first place.

It would be different if the trigger was worded, e.g., “At the beginning of your upkeep, the owner of enchanted permanent sacrifices it unless he or she pays X, where X is its converted mana cost.” Here, the trigger doesn't attempt to determine what the enchanted permanent is until it resolves, so it would apply to the newly enchanted permanent.

There is no written rule for this exact case, but the spirit is very much the same as for 608.2i: if you care about the enchanted object for the cost or trigger condition, that object is determined when the ability is put onto the stack and locked in; if you care about it only in the effect, then you determine what the enchanted object is upon resolution.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules NetRep

Daniel, could you clarify the difference between how Soul Tithe is worded and your hypothetical example? It appears the same, except for when the trigger occurs.

Soul Tithe reads “at the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted permanent's controller, …”

My example reads “at the beginning of your upkeep, …”

The difference is that Soul Tithe's trigger condition (i.e. when it triggers) refers to the enchanted object, while mine doesn't. Because the object is mentioned in the trigger condition on Soul Tithe, the object is locked in.

Is this clearer?

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules NetRep

Ah, yes very much so; I missed where the nuance was occurring in the deterministic factor. Thanks! :)