In a recent forum post (https://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/42357/) the official answer was that CR 720 takes precedence over the IPG. I have a bunch of questions regarding this. The first two question I now have are
1) Does applying this rule also entail the player receiving a warning?
2) If a player intentionally does something that is caught by this rule, do they get a DQ?

Then, I would like to know to know why we don't apply this rule consistently. CR 720 starts with “If a player takes an illegal action or starts to take an action but can’t legally complete it, …” and then continues to describe what we do to fix the problem. “Illegal Action” is defined as “An action that violates the rules of the game and/or requirements or restrictions created by effects.” Literally every Game Play Error falls under this description. Why does the entire first third of the IPG exist if CR 720 supersedes it (3)?
If a player attacks with a creature with defender and their opponent has Propaganda and they crack a Chromatic Sphere and then realize they can't/don't want to pay the cost, do they keep the card when we do the backup (4)? In what phase do they have the mana from the Sphere available (5)?
If a player searches their library and it contains a Panglacial Wurm, they start to cast the Wurm and use a Chromatic Sphere during that. They will obviously draw the first card before the shuffle happens. If they then can't pay for the Wurm, do they get to keep the card (6)? Do they get a warning (7)? Do they get a DQ if they do it intentionally (8)?

And somewhat related to this, If a player starts to cast a spell and they don't have the mana to finish casting it, do they get a warning (9)? What if they have an untapped land, but don't want to use it, are they forced to (10)? What if they have a Simian Spirit Guide in hand (11)?

Edited Imogen Hergeth (April 2, 2018 09:35:02 AM)

It's worth remembering that the IPG is designed to handle situations that commonly occur at Competitive REL tournaments. A comprehensive version of the IPG that handled every situation can could legally occur within all sanctioned formats would be thousands of pages long, and no one would be able to use it.

I wouldn't worry about Panglacial Wurm-related Warnings until Panglacial Wurm starts seeing play in anything but hypothetical questions (it's not even a good Judge Tower card!).

In general, if you've identified an infraction, the player should receive the prescribed penalty, irrespective of the remedy. That is, whether the CR or the IPG is being used in a rewind, if a player commits a Game Rule Violation, issue a Warning. If the player broke a rule, knew that he or she was breaking that rule, and did so to gain an advantage, disqualify the player.

Originally posted by Martin Hergeth:

official answer was that CR 720 takes precedence over the IPG

That's not at all what I said. The ‘O’fficial answer just clarified that activating an otherwise legal mana ability during the illegal casting of a spell isn't illegal by itself, and doesn't have to be reversed. Simpler abilities - e.g., tapping a Deathrite Shaman for its first ability is fine to rewind.

Originally posted by Martin Hergeth:

CR720 starts with “If a player…” … what we do to fix

Actually, CR720 describes what players do to fix this. The IPG describes what we do.

Remember that the CR defines the rules of the game as it's played anywhere; CR720 tells players at your kitchen table what to do when you mess up.

The IPG helps us run Competitive and Professional tournaments, and - while following the IPG - judges might vary slightly from CR720, in favor of IPG 1.4.

1) not at your kitchen table, but yes, the IPG still applies at Comp/Pro REL;
2) the definition of Cheating has not changed (MTR 5.1, IPG 4.8);
3) premise of this question is invalid;
4) 5) 6) … 11) sorry, I don't have that much time, to ponder every What If??!?!!! we can imagine. Also, I think answers for 1, 2, and 3 pretty much cover it.

d:^D

DRS isnt a mana ability tho…

If that would be fine we should be able to rewind Dark Rituals etc too if they notice “oh damn, I miscounted”.

Edited Johannes Wagner (April 2, 2018 11:59:17 AM)

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

That's not at all what I said. The ‘O’fficial answer just clarified that activating an otherwise legal mana ability during the illegal casting of a spell isn't illegal by itself, and doesn't have to be reversed.

But this means that CR 720 takes precedence over the IPG. If we do a backup like the IPG says we should, the card would return to the top of the deck. CR 720 says that we should leave it in hand. If you then say that we should leave it, it means that CR 720 takes precedence over the IPG.
Then you go on saying that the iPG is more important at comp REL events. But what is it? Why is CR 720 more important in one case, but not in another. Both are covered by CR 720 and the IPG.
And I can understand that you don't have infinite time. But this is a very important topic in my opinion. This is about whether we should apply what is actually written within the rules of Magic or do what the judges that write the rules have intended. This is about whether we want a tournament to follow rules as they are written or to do what the judge thinks is “correct” using their own thought on the situation and allowing them to bend the rules as they see fit.

And if you really don't have time for even that, just please answer me this question. Is it OK for a player to intentionally start casting Panglacial Wurm and to crack a Chromatic Sphere during that and then intentionally not pay for the Wurm (keeping the card drawn from Sphere)? And this is a situation that I can guarantee will come up at multiple comp REL events because I will start doing it personally :P

(O)fficial response requested. Locking for now.

Martin, I'm sorry that I'm apparently not explaining this well, but I'm struggling to find the disconnect and address it.

Originally posted by Martin Hergeth:

this means that CR 720 takes precedence over the IPG

No, not at all what I'm saying - although I've seen a couple people read that into policy and my ‘O’ posts. I'll confess, I'm not clear on why “precedence” matters, much less how either of two complementary policy documents can't just work together - from my perspective, those documents co-exist quite well, and have done so for many, many years.

Originally posted by Martin Hergeth:

Is it OK for a player to intentionally start casting Panglacial Wurm and to crack a Chromatic Sphere during that and then intentionally not pay for the Wurm (keeping the card drawn from Sphere)?

Let me rephrase that slightly, and I think you'll agree the answer is pretty clear:

Is it OK for a player to intentionally commit a GRV in order to gain advantage?

Originally posted by Johannes Wagner:

DRS isnt a mana ability tho…

d'oh! You're right, bad example - hopefully, the idea was clear, even though the specific card wasn't a good choice.

d:^D

I feel like I might be digging deeper into this than need be, considering how much Panglacial Wurm sees play, but what if we were to replace the Chromatic Sphere with a Selvala, Explorer Returned? Lets assume they have five forests. They search, see a non-land, try to cast the Wurm, activating Selvala. They reveal the non-land they know they have on top, but their opponent reveals a land, leaving them a mana short. This is a similar case to the Sphere, but the player doesn't know how much mana they can make.

That's already covered here https://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/10471/ and here https://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/42357/?page=1#post-254075

Thank you very much