Magic Judges Forum / Article Discussion / Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry · Oct. 26, 2023 02:10:21 AM

Today, we talk about the first of the new levels added to broaden the old Level Two. We call it “Level Three!” Not to be confused with the old Level Three, which we'll talk about in a later article.

https://www.judgefoundry.org/articles/level-three

Give it a read, then share your feedback!

Joshua Early · Oct. 26, 2023 07:30:08 AM

IMO there should be some extra qualification or perhaps certification one can earn as an L2 to be able to certify L2s without being L3 (as could happen in the old system before JA). One does not have to be a judge able to frequently travel to large events (some states see maybe one large event per year and it's hard for many to make frequent 5+ hour trips every year to judge large events) to be able to recognize that a L1 is ready to become a L2. I apply to large events when they are reasonably nearby, which wouldn't have me L3 anytime soon. But, I've been a L2 for over 7 years at this point and can certainly tell when an L1 is ready. I also know I'm not the only one.

Bryan Prillaman · Oct. 26, 2023 07:51:48 AM

<html><head><meta http-equiv=“content-type” content=“text/html; charset=utf-8”></head><body dir=“auto”><div dir=“ltr”></div><div dir=“ltr”>The old program had a certification called L2T.  It was a process L2s could go through to be allowed to certified L2s.</div><div dir=“ltr”><br></div><div dir=“ltr”>this certification had several requirements to be managed, validated, and maintained.  “Trust me, i’m good” is not sufficient evidence of ability.  And the number of people that pursued the badge was low, and the number of L2s they made through that process was even lower, and this was at a *global* level.  </div><div dir=“ltr”><br></div><div dir=“ltr”>In short, it wasn’t used enough to justify the infrastructure needed to support it even in the old program when we were rolling in resources.</div><div dir=“ltr”><br></div><div dir=“ltr”>-bryan</div><div dir=“ltr”><br></div><div dir=“ltr”><br><blockquote type=“cite”>On Oct 25, 2023, at 6:33 PM, Joshua Early <forum-55018-8ef8@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=“cite”><div dir=“ltr”>

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IMO there should be some extra qualification or perhaps certification one can earn as an L2 to be able to certify L2s without being L3 (as could happen in the old system before JA). One does not have to be a judge able to frequently travel to large events (some states see <em>maybe</em> one large event per year and it's hard for many to make frequent 5+ hour trips every year to judge large events) to be able to recognize that a L1 is ready to become a L2. I apply to large events when they are reasonably nearby, which wouldn't have me L3 anytime soon. But, I've been a L2 for over 7 years at this point and can certainly tell when an L1 is ready. I also know I'm not the only one.<br><br>

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Bryan Prillaman · Oct. 27, 2023 05:05:17 AM

Trying again with fixed formatting

The old program had a certification called L2T.
It was a process L2s could go through to be allowed to certified L2s.
This certification had several requirements to be managed, validated, and maintained. “Trust me, i’m good” is not sufficient evidence of ability. And the number of people that pursued the badge was low, and the number of L2s they made through that process was even lower, and this was at a *global* level.
In short, it wasn’t used enough to justify the infrastructure needed to support it even in the old program when we were rolling in resources.

-bryan

Bryan Prillaman · Oct. 27, 2023 05:05:18 AM

Trying again with fixed formatting

The old program had a certification called L2T.
It was a process L2s could go through to be allowed to certified L2s.
This certification had several requirements to be managed, validated, and maintained. “Trust me, i’m good” is not sufficient evidence of ability. And the number of people that pursued the badge was low, and the number of L2s they made through that process was even lower, and this was at a *global* level.
In short, it wasn’t used enough to justify the infrastructure needed to support it even in the old program when we were rolling in resources.

-bryan

Joshua Early · Oct. 29, 2023 04:18:57 PM

I just think it creates an unnecessarily difficult barrier to reach L2 that it requires a L3. There are plenty of areas without reasonably local L3s that rarely if ever see large events. How then would a prospective L2 even secure their promotion? How are they to find an L3 that can end up becoming any sort of mentor without having to travel extensively to a large event (assuming they get staffed, because getting staffed as a L1 isn't always easy) to hope to meet someone to even begin any sort of relationship with to ask about what it takes.

This may not describe most areas or all that many areas, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered again. The world is different post-pandemic, and there are significantly less large events in most places. In the roughly 3 years the certification existed in the old system, we could bank on having 6 or more large events every year within 3 hours of where I live. When 2023 ends, there will have been 2. Thankfully, I know we have some L3s within a couple hours of where I am.

As much as “trust me, I'm good” isn't sufficient evidence for a certification, “it wasn't useful before” seems insufficient reason to write it off when the state of organized play is so different compares to 4 to 7 years ago when the old program existed with said certification.

Bryan Prillaman · Oct. 29, 2023 09:43:26 PM

Originally posted by Joshua Early:

As much as “trust me, I'm good” isn't sufficient evidence for a certification, “it wasn't useful before” seems insufficient reason to write it off when the state of organized play is so different compares to 4 to 7 years ago when the old program existed with said certification.

I think your entire argument prior to this point is very much guilty of the same. You talk about how difficult it is to find a local L3 currently…when the entire article is defining a new L3 where the bar is much lower. JF has repeatedly said that their level system breaks L2 up across L2, L3, L4. The current definition of L3 is JF’s L5 (with some dipping into L4) so the density of L3s will be much higher with JFs definitions.

Now what’s funny though is..the requirements to make new L2 are very similar to “the old program” from 4-7 years ago. So I think it’s very easy to argue that a maintaining separate certification outside the level system would require a very similiar amount of effort, and with the increased density of L3s under JFs new definition that the need for such a certification would be even *less* difficult less than before as L3s are gonna be more common.

Bryan Prillaman · Oct. 29, 2023 09:43:27 PM

Originally posted by Joshua Early:

As much as “trust me, I'm good” isn't sufficient evidence for a certification, “it wasn't useful before” seems insufficient reason to write it off when the state of organized play is so different compares to 4 to 7 years ago when the old program existed with said certification.

I think your entire argument prior to this point is very much guilty of the same. You talk about how difficult it is to find a local L3 currently…when the entire article is defining a new L3 where the bar is much lower. JF has repeatedly said that their level system breaks L2 up across L2, L3, L4. The current definition of L3 is JF’s L5 (with some dipping into L4) so the density of L3s will be much higher with JFs definitions.

Now what’s funny though is..the requirements to make new L2 are very similar to “the old program” from 4-7 years ago. So I think it’s very easy to argue that a maintaining separate certification outside the level system would require a very similiar amount of effort, and with the increased density of L3s under JFs new definition that the need for such a certification would be even *less* difficult less than before as L3s are gonna be more common.

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Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three

Judge Foundry: Level Three