You're a judge and you're watching a match where a player has a Tarmogoyf with a d6 on ‘4’ on it. Tarmogoyf does not have any counters on it.


A) in graveyards, you note a creature, land and instant; making tarmogoyf 3/4.

B) in graveyards, you note a creature, land, instant and sorcery; making tarmogoyf 4/5.

C) In graveyards, you note a creature, land, instant, sorcery, and planeswalker; making tarmogoyf a 5/6.


It's clear that if they try to ‘resolve’ damage incorrectly then you step in; but otherwise, do you interrupt the players and have them change the dice in any way? Does the situation change if you're a spectator?


(It's not uncommon for players to use dice to represent Tarmogoyf's power.)

I would ask them what it represents, so that *I* know what it is, as well as to ensure that they know what it is. Better to be safe than sorry when you see something ambiguous to you.

-Eric Shukan
—– Original Message —–
From: Tim Hughes
To: eshukan@verizon.net
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:54 AM
Subject: Tarmogoyf and dice (Competitive REL)


You're a judge and you're watching a match where a player has a Tarmogoyf with a d6 on ‘4’ on it. Tarmogoyf does not have any counters on it.


A) in graveyards, you note a creature, land and instant; making tarmogoyf 3/4.

B) in graveyards, you note a creature, land, instant and sorcery; making tarmogoyf 4/5.

C) In graveyards, you note a creature, land, instant, sorcery, and planeswalker; making tarmogoyf a 5/6.


It's clear that if they try to ‘resolve’ damage incorrectly then you step in; but otherwise, do you interrupt the players and have them change the dice in any way? Does the situation change if you're a spectator?


(It's not uncommon for players to use dice to represent Tarmogoyf's power.)

—————————
If you want to respond to this thread, simply reply to this e-email. Or view and respond to this message on the web at http://apps.magicjudges.org/notifications/378785/

Disable all notifications for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/5710/
Receive on-site notifications only for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/5710/

You can change your email notification settings at http://apps.magicjudges.org/profiles/edit

Originally posted by Eric Shukan:

I would ask them what it represents, so that *I* know what it is, as well as to ensure that they know what it is. Better to be safe than sorry when you see something ambiguous to you.

It is possible that doing so would be perceived as ‘coaching’?

Players could use anything the want to use for tokens or any other things to count f.e. mana or stormcount.

I thing for a judge it is very difficult to say A´s put an “incorrect number” on the goyf was against better knowledge.
Graveyards are not hidden zones, so B has to count for himself the card types in the graves to know p/t.
As long as there are no rule violances to see, (f.E. A SAYS after resolving B`s instant Damage spell for 4 (in case of A) that goyf will survive because of the 4 on the die to try to lie about the 4 representing not toughness but power.

As to the concern about coaching, the game state has to be clear to both players. If I ask what something on the battlefield represents, I expect the same answer from both players or we're looking at some kind of communication issue. In this situation and anything else just ask. 90% of the time both players know what's going on. Even in C, I don't know when the last card type was added or if they're resolving something else and they'll change it in a second or as soon as that's done. The important thing is to check to see if you need to investigate further.

Per the IPG
• Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.

So if the player is using the dice to track and represent the number of types of cards in the graveyards for his Tarmagoyf he has to keep it correct.

So is the placing of a die onto the Tarmogoyf a continued statement of fact about it's power and toughness?

Placing any object with or on anything else means exactly what the players in a given game decide it does. Our job is just to make sure that both players are clear on the board state, and if they have decided to use a due to mark current power or toughness then that needs to stay updated.

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

So is the placing of a die onto the Tarmogoyf a continued statement of fact about it's power and toughness?

If it has been used initially to mark the Power of the Goyf, then yes, I'd say it is a continued statement of fact about it's power. If the Goyfs power changes, the owner of the die - probably the owner of the Goyf - has two options: Change the die to represent Goyfs powers correctly, or remove it.

On Mon Sep 02 10:23, Philip Körte wrote:
>

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

So is the placing of a die onto the Tarmogoyf a continued statement of fact about it's power and toughness?

>
> If it has been used initially to mark the Power of the Goyf, then yes, I'd say it is a continued statement of fact about it's power. If the Goyfs power changes, the owner of the die - probably the owner of the Goyf - has two options: Change the die to represent Goyfs powers correctly, or remove it.

And, if it's a statement about derived information, what would you say the opponent's responsibilities regarding it are?

Matt

Originally posted by Tim Hughes:

It is possible that doing so would be perceived as ‘coaching’?

Clarifying game state is never coaching. Saying something like “That's a 4/5. You're dead on board.” would be coaching.

Jim Shuman
Per the IPG
• Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.

So if the player is using the dice to track and represent the number of types of cards in the graveyards for his Tarmagoyf he has to keep it correct.

I strongly disagree. Dice are a form of player notes that are visible to both players. The communication policy relates to answering direct questions. I'm not continuously telling my opponent the names of foreign cards I have on the battlefield. Likewise, the die only needs to be correct if someone or the game rules ask “What's tarmogoyf's current P/T?” and I reference the die.

There are a couple issues here:
1) It is common for players to only care about P/T at specific times during the turn, like when attacking. It is common and completely acceptable to take a whole bunch of actions during non-combat portions of the turn that may affect ‘Goyf, then do a single update when it matters for attacking.

2) Player notes are player notes. It is not an infraction to take bad notes, and it is not an infraction to let my opponent to take bad notes. If I say “Lightning Bolt you. Go to 5,” then he writes down 6 for some reason (or misreads his own handwriting), I’ve done my job by stating the correct life total change as long as he doesn't try to confirm that 6 with me. Likewise, it's not my job to correct misconceptions my opponent has about Tarmogoyf's P/T (regardless of who owns it), which is fine as long as nothing illegal happens in the game as a result and I don't falsely answer a question about it.

It's not a CPV because there was no question. It's not a GRV because there is no action. You aren't responsible for players taking good notes. So there is no infraction, and you should not approach this scenario with that mindset.

Originally posted by Tim Hughes:

do you interrupt the players and have them change the dice in any way?

Actually, yes. Even with what I said above, you are interested in two things:
1) Clarifying game state if it's ambiguous. (And maybe it isn't. Maybe the players just know that they'll update it later or the Goyf has a +1/+1 or -1/-1 counter on it that they are folding into the count. Ambiguous to you, but not them.)
2) Discovering past GRVs. You should investigate whether Goyf assigned the wrong damage last turn or survived a combat where he should have died. You are relatively unlikely to rewind as the result of this investigation, but you may end up giving some Warnings to help remind players to count more carefully in the future.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

2) Player notes are player notes. It is not an infraction to take bad notes, and it is not an infraction to let my opponent to take bad notes. If I say “Lightning Bolt you. Go to 5,” then he writes down 6 for some reason (or misreads his own handwriting), I've done my job by stating the correct life total change as long as he doesn't try to confirm that 6 with me.

This is not true, if you see you opponent has a wrong life total you are required to point it now

Edited Gareth Tanner (Sept. 2, 2013 03:13:45 PM)

On Mon Sep 02 13:03, Joshua Feingold wrote:
> I strongly disagree. Dice are a form of player notes that are visible to both players. The communication policy relates to answering direct questions. I'm not continuously telling my opponent the names of foreign cards I have on the battlefield. Likewise, the die only needs to be correct if someone or the game rules ask “What's tarmogoyf's current P/T?” and I reference the die.

While I agree with you, there is some disagreement on this point. In particular, if you believe this and then a player is misled by his opponent's incorrect die then they have no recourse. If we treat it as a continuous statement you can back up when the die is incorrect and it affected blocking decisions.

> 2) Player notes are player notes. It is not an infraction to take bad notes, and it is not an infraction to let my opponent to take bad notes. If I say “Lightning Bolt you. Go to 5,” then he writes down 6 for some reason (or misreads his own handwriting), I've done my job by stating the correct life total change as long as he doesn't try to confirm that 6 with me. Likewise, it's not my job to correct misconceptions my opponent has about Tarmogoyf's P/T (regardless of who owns it), which is fine as long as nothing illegal happens in the game as a result and I don't falsely answer a question about it.

Actually, no, it is specifically called out in MTR 2.14 “If a player notices a discrepency in … recorded life totals he is expected to point it out. Failure to do so will be considered a Cheating - Fraud penalty”

Also, you do have to correct a misconception if your opponent makes a false statement about it, since that's a CPV (“players may not represent derived information incorrectly”) and one of the definitions of USC - Cheating is “… or notices an offence committed in his or her match and does not call attention to it”.

Matt

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

If I say “Lightning Bolt you. Go to 5,” then he writes down 6 for some reason (or misreads his own handwriting)

You guys are correct. My original statement was ambiguous. I didn't mean “he writes 6, and I notice.” I just mean “he writes 6.” I don't have to actively monitor his life total pad for errors. I just have to correct them if I notice it is wrong. (For example, by attempting to confirm the 6.)

In the Tarmogoyf scenario, I don't have to actively monitor the die. I just have to correct him if he tries to apply the wrong actual creature size in some way.

Edited Joshua Feingold (Sept. 2, 2013 04:01:36 PM)

Originally posted by Matthew Johnson:

If we treat it as a continuous statement you can back up when the die is incorrect and it affected blocking decisions.

This feels like choosing an infraction to justify a desired fix. I don't think we have document support for the notion of a continuous statement.