A little scenario I thought of this morning has sparked quite a bit of discussion on Facebook, so I figured that I would bring it here so that others can discuss it too.

Here's the scenario:
You are a knowledgeable judge with considerable Competitive REL experience. You're not judging today, though. Instead you're playing in a large Competitive event, let's say a PTQ/10k/GP/whatever.
During your match, a floor judge is called over and makes a ruling in your favor. You know 100% that the judge's ruling is wrong, and should be in your opponent's favor instead.

So here's the question: Do you appeal? If you don't appeal, have you committed an infraction (cheating?) or otherwise violated some standard of judging ethics? Does it make a difference if this ruling will cost you the game? The match? The entire event?

Have at it, folks. :)

I once had a new judge fail to give me a game loss and I appealed. The HJ
aged that I should definitely get a GL. I was later told by several higher
level judges that I didn't need to do that. I would still feel icky if I
didn't.

There is nothing in any policy that says “you must appeal a ruling you know to be incorrect.” The opponent also has the right to appeal that ruling, as it turns out. And by the book, it makes no difference if it would cost you a game, a match, or an entire event.

That being said, my personal moral compass wouldn't allow me to let an incorrect ruling stand when an appeal was available. If another judge is able to feel comfortable in the same situation, that's their prerogative… but I can't help it if I quietly judge their character for it. ;) I also personally wouldn't care how much was at stake on the ruling if I was involved (I wouldn't be happy with an undeserved win by judge ruling), but I might be more willing to forgive another judge's decision not to appeal if the stakes were higher, since I understand the self-serving human nature.

I have 2 different answers

The competetive player answer: “I would probably just let it slide, educate
them after the fact about what was wrong about the ruling”

Judge answer: “Appeal 100% of the time, we shouldn't let an incorrect
ruling stand when we know we can fix it at the time.”

To be fair none of us can be 1 or the other 100% of the time. As such it
would depend on the situation for me. I would tend towards the appeal even
if it would cost me the event. Much like josh I would have a hard time
justifying it to myself as acceptable to let it slide.

I appeal.

By strict reading, I don't think it would end up being a violation not to appeal. The closest I can see is “Unsporting Conduct - Cheating”, but that just requires that you do not call attention to it. But you did, you got “lucky” and the official made a bad call. Appealing would be the sporting thing to do, but you're not required to to exhibit sporting behavior by the IPG either.

I think ethically you're pretty much required to make things right though. Even when not acting as a judge, you still represent the judge program and the game. This isn't even necessarily just your opponent seeing that bad calls happen sometimes, and some people will take advantage of what they can (ie, some people are jerks). This can look very much like favoritism and collusion (the whole system is corrupt). In my day job, the call is not to just avoid impropriety, it's to avoid even the appearance of it. And for good reason, and it applies very much here.

As for whether it costs the game, match, or event? Not a factor.

As far as I know, in no situation are you required to appeal a ruling. If you can justify with your own conscience to win by this incorrect ruling, you can without committing an infraction. You have certainly not committed cheating by default, because cheating requires you to have intentionally violated some other rule. To my knowledge, there is no other rule that you violate by NOT appealing. Hence you cannot commit cheating.

Do I appeal it? Most likely I will, yes. Do I need to? No. Is this questionable from an ethics point of view considering my participation in the judge program? Probably. About as questionable as not pointing out missed triggers to my opponent. Which, in most cases, I actually even do in competitive events, but that is me trying to have fun over winning, if my opponent is comparatively nice.

Could I point out his triggers to educate him? Yes, I could. Would this be ‘more in line’ with the idea of the judge-program than not giving them to him? Yes, it would be, since it would make the player get what he deserves to. Do I need to do so? No, because awareness of the gamestate is considered a skill, and I am not committing an infraction by not doing so.

This is very much similar to this situation, in my opinion. Yes, it would be ‘fairer’ to appeal the ruling, it would educate both my opponent AND the FJ about the rules. BUT, knowledge of the rules documents is considered a skill, the MIPG and MTR are part of those rules documents, and if my opponent does not have that knowledge (and thereby skill) when the FJ makes an incorrect ruling, then he lost for his lack of this ‘skill’. I am not required to make him aware of this.


What I would do (and advise everyone else to do) in this situation though, is to tell the FJ about his mistake AFTER the match. As to make him a better judge. And also, I'd probably tell my opponent that the ruling was wrong in my opinion, but that I am not required to appeal a ruling even if I know it is wrong. If he then tries to blame me as a judge for not correcting my colleague, I'd tell him that rules knowledge is considered a skill, and that I am allowed to do so, and that this is REL Comp, where skill matters.


Also: A judges ruling stands over all the documents. If the Headjudge announces that the tournament will be played with damage on the stack, then those are the rules for that tournament. Granted, he'd probably not HJ a competitive event any time soon again - but for the tournament I am in, the following ‘rules-dependency’ counts:
Headjudge-ruling breaks Floorjudge-ruling breaks Documents. So, as long as the ruling is not appealed and we get a ruling from the Headjudge, a ‘wrong’ ruling by the floorjudge is actually a ‘right’ ruling which I, as a player, have to follow and play by, no matter if it is what the documents say or do not say.

I'm not sure there is a “Correct” answer here. The floor judge is the authority here and his ruling goes. I don't think there's any requirement to object.

However, there are many ethical reasons to appeal:

1. You know better. Can your conscience handle it?
2. Optics. If another player knows the ruling is wrong and sees you as a judge allow it to slide, it's definitely going to change that player's opinion of you and if they gossip (and they will), the rest of the community. Your reputation could be irreparably damaged.
3. It presents an educational opportunity for the floor judge. Maybe he goes on to make the same ruling elsewhere, spreading the damage to the integrity of the event.

Please take in the social considerations. What happens when this player finds out that you let a bad ruling happen to take advantage of it? This player's experience of Magic and the impression of who they let into the Judge program has been compromised. Do you think this player is going to be quiet about it? How is this player going to interact with you at future events where you're the judge?

On the positive side if you appeal to get the correct ruling, your opponent and possibly the other players around you will now look at you as a more trustworthy judge. Respecting you more.

Whether your moral code sits either way you will have to deal with the repercussions good or bad. What do you want out of it?

I feel being respected in your community for being upstanding is more important in life than using “scummy” plays to possibly win 1 game. - IMO

This moral conendrum occured to me at GP Prague.

I received a ruling I certainly liked, but would not have done myself. It was about Rewind/No Rewind where I advantage much from Rewind but would not rule it myself that way.
My opponent was unhappy with the ruling and told me this.
What I did was to suggest him “you can appeal if you don't like this ruling, I also think it's not the correct ruling”.

With that action, I think i'm safe from displaying a “bad image” without giving up my competitive aims. I can live perfectly with either outcomes (appeal and change of ruling or no appeal).

While what Nick says is all true, there is the flip-side: we cannot levy additional requirements on players in an event just because they happen to have a judge certification (of any level). Doing so would be a heavy dis-incentive to acquire such a cert, or tell anyone about it if you are a judge. There's also the fact that we are committed to treating all players equally. As such, whether or not a player is a judge is quite simply not a part of the equation as far as the rules are concerned.

Thus I believe it entirely appropriate for a non-appeal to be considered “not unsporting” (and thus breaking no rule), but also “not sporting” (and thus generally frowned upon). Players will form opinions of you on this just like they would if any other player has done the same thing, and it is up to the individual conscience of the person in question to determine their course of action.

It does however beg the question - do we in any way penalize judges for engaging in this ‘gray area’ not sporting/not unsporting behavior? If we do…there are a non-trivial number of scenarios in which gray area behavior presents significant strategic advantage. Does that mean that I, as a certified judge, am now forced to put myself at a competitive disadvantage as a direct result of my participation in the judge program? Note that I am not debating the morality of the decision - its definitely not the kind of thing I'd do. What I'm asking is if the judge program has any involvement whatsoever and whether it will affect someone's place in the program if they choose to engage in gray area behavior.

At US Nationals several years ago, “John Doe” - then L3 - was playing; I was Head Judge. On day 2, he received a Warning that, had the floor judge asked the proper question (“have you had any Warnings before during this event?”), would have been upgraded to a Game Loss. John Doe said nothing - and then his conscience drove him nuts. He came and talked to me and Andy Heckt, and we agreed that he had no obligation - per policy! - to remind the floor judge of his duties. (I also quickly reminded all the judges to ask that question!)

So, “official” answer, if you will: you do NOT have to appeal an incorrect ruling.

When I play, I almost always appeal - whether the floor judge is right or not - because I want to see how the floor judge and the Head Judge handle that. I have to admit, it's kind of fun to watch an L2 squirm a bit when I tell them “you better get the HJ, I just earned a Game Loss here…” :)

Another thing that came up in the thread which I would love to get some other perspectives on. It was mentionned by one of the judges in the discussion that if ze found out a judge didn't appeal an incorrect ruling, ze would consider it a negative mark on the judge; negative enough to report the judge to hir RC and/or not staff the judge on events ze is staffing for some time. Since there isn't anything wrong in policy with not appealing these incorrect rulings, would you feel it's fair or appropriate for a judge to subject another to these kinds of negative consequences for doing so?

Whenever I play, I will appeal if I think the floor judge is wrong, regardless of whose favor the ruling is in. I like to appeal any ruling where the floor judge needs to think about it more, or is right for the wrong reason. I think that it reflects badly on you as a judge if you accept a ruling that you think is incorrect, but it is a choice whether or not to make the appeal.

i would not appeal here. what nick said is interesting. if i appeal, the
player may find me more trustworthy or whatever. however, if i don't
appeal, the player will learn a valuable lesson – that no matter who his
opponent is, judge or otherwise, that person is still trying to win and
should not be trusted.

They might also learn the lesson that Judges can't be trusted.

I'd like to believe that judges were unlikely to do this at anything
less important than a GPT. As acting like the competitive, well jerk,
at events where having fun is the primary objective will not paint our
communiity as understanding of non cut throat events.

Not that you need to use this technique to do that, generally being
'that guy' at events as a judge will do it :)

On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Sam Sherman
<forum-5811-5ba2@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> i would not appeal here. what nick said is interesting. if i appeal, the
> player may find me more trustworthy or whatever. however, if i don't
> appeal, the player will learn a valuable lesson – that no matter who his
> opponent is, judge or otherwise, that person is still trying to win and
> should not be trusted.
>
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–
Gareth Pye
Level 2 Judge, Melbourne, Australia
Australian MTG Forum: mtgau.com
gareth@cerberos.id.au - www.rockpaperdynamite.wordpress.com
“Dear God, I would like to file a bug report”