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Competitive REL » Post: "Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

April 27, 2014 11:35:31 PM

Kenji Suzuki
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

Japan

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Hello,

Today we have official announcement about “Gods pack” in Journey into Nyx.
I want official procedure about this pack in GPT/PTQ when player open this pack, because I'll HJ PTQ in May. (Some other judges will also want official answer, I think)

In announcement,
“If you're playing in a Limited tournament and open a booster pack with all 15 of the Theros gods. be sure to bring it to the attention of a Judge or the Tournament Organizer. They may ask you to set aside those cards and open a different booster pack to use in the event”

So, Judge/TO MAY ask them to replace to new (normal) pack.
In competitive, especially in GPT/PTQ, is this procedure optional or mandatory?
I think gods pack makes really weird situation in Limited with decklist because player's pool distribution become “incorrect” (not 28/28/28). I'll replace all gods packs in my GPT/PTQ anyway, but I still want official answer.

Thanks,

April 27, 2014 11:42:43 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Since this is neither speculative nor a discussion topic, I'm closing the thread until we have an Official answer from Wizards.

April 28, 2014 10:54:05 AM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

The decision to replace the “God pack” with a regular booster is entirely up to the TO.

It is very strongly recommended that, as Head Judges, we discuss this topic with our TO in advance. Help them understand the various factors, how players see things, etc. This should help each TO make their own decisions; keep in mind that, should the TO find it prohibitive to replace product, then the lucky(?) player gets to use his or her Pantheon.

Wizards of the Coast will be replacing these packs with a regular pack for any events where they are the TO (e.g., Pro Tours), or where they prepare product (e.g., drafts for day two of some GPs). That's not a statement on what should happen, it's just the decision that Wizards has made. I think it can inform the decisions for other TOs - obviously, Wizards feels this is better for the event - but it should never be presented to any TO as “you must do it this way!”

Personally, I would always replace the Pantheon, and let the player keep their “bonus”. I was undecided at first, then some quick logic convinced me: at the very least (in a 2-color Sealed build) you will have three Gods in your colors. It's common for even experienceed players to splash a 3rd color in Sealed, and that means you'll have at least SIX Gods you can build around - more if you opened any in your other packs. And, Gods forbid (heh - see what I did there?!) you open and build with TWO of these Pantheons!

For a friendly, Regular REL store event, it may be fun to let the player build with that pack. When it's something more Competitive (GPTs, PTQs), then I think the player community would greatly prefer replacement.

If you, as Head Judge of an upcoming event, discuss all of that with your TO, then you've done your part to allow the TO to make the best decision for them - and that's the end of our part in this.

d:^D

April 28, 2014 11:15:56 AM

JD Nir
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Plains

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

In the extraordinarily unlikely event that multiple players receive Pantheon packs, do they all need to be handled in the same way? In other words, is “Players can choose to receive a replacement pack or play with their Pantheon” an allowed TO policy?

April 28, 2014 12:48:28 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Another key point to keep in mind: we can’t force a player to have their pack replaced if they do not wish it to be.

That's not a big deal, most of the time:
  • Regular REL, no deck swap - each player can choose; I'd encourage them to decide right away, not 20 minutes into construction;
  • Comp REL, deck swap - the player who opens the product is almost guaranteed to want to swap, if the TO is offering that;
  • Comp REL, no deck swap - please discourage this, if only because the players have this lack of trust of each other.

That just leaves us with the odd corner-cases
  • where you plan a deck swap, and announce clearly “If you open a Pantheon pack, you keep it and we'll give you a new one to replace it” - and they misunderstand or don't listen, and either pocket the pack w/o a replacement or pass the pool with the Pantheon;
  • where you plan a deck swap, and the TO won't replace Pantheon packs, but one player opens one and loudly proclaims “you HAVE to let me keep it, it says so (in the rules)(on the Judge list)(etc.,etc)”.

In those unusual cases, all I can offer is to do the best you can to provide fair service to ALL players. (And keep in mind that, sometimes, one player will be very unhappy with what seems best for everyone else.)

d:^D

April 28, 2014 05:26:48 PM

Darcy Alemany
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

None

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Scott, why can't a TO force a player to replace their pack if they want to play? Isn't that exactly what MTR 7.4 says?

April 28, 2014 08:44:30 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

If I were to guess, it's this: the player paid for that product, and it'd be terrible customer service to deny him the chance to play with it.

If I hear anything else, I'll share that…

d:^D

April 29, 2014 06:29:29 AM

Philip Ockelmann
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer, IJP Temporary Regional Advisor

German-speaking countries

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Isn't that kind of in contradiction to what Wizards does at PTs/GP-day2s?

If the TO cannot force the player to replace his Pantheon-pack, and a Pantheon-pack is opened (for a player) for a day2-draft, wouldn't that mean that it would need to be given to the player to give him the chance to draft with it?

Because, technically, if I were to set the Pantheon-pack aside while registering product and replace it with a non-pantheon pack, I would ‘force the player’ to replace it.
Granted, the player will never know, I'm just asking for the chance that a TO/player asks me this question.
I'm guessing the answer is ‘the player does not own the pack until it is handed to him, therefor Wizards (the TO) can decide not to give him this pack, but a different one instead’, but that'd explanation opens up a can of wurms if a TO then decides that he wants to pre-register (he can choose to do so, right?) the Top8-draft of his GPT like day2-drafts of GPs are pre-registered, and argues ‘well, any pack that has a rare/foil worth more than 2$ will be set aside, I will keep that, and give the player a different one….it’s not really different from switching out a Godpack before the player gets it, is it?', or, possibly even worse, ‘I don’t like this player, so the pre-registered product he opens and firstpicks from will not have any Bomb-rares.'

April 29, 2014 06:39:01 AM

Vincent Roscioli
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Originally posted by Philip Körte:

I'm guessing the answer is ‘the player does not own the pack until it is handed to him, therefor Wizards (the TO) can decide not to give him this pack, but a different one instead’, but that'd explanation opens up a can of wurms if a TO then decides that he wants to pre-register (he can choose to do so, right?) the Top8-draft of his GPT like day2-drafts of GPs are pre-registered, and argues ‘well, any pack that has a rare/foil worth more than 2$ will be set aside, I will keep that, and give the player a different one….it’s not really different from switching out a Godpack before the player gets it, is it?', or, possibly even worse, ‘I don’t like this player, so the pre-registered product he opens and firstpicks from will not have any Bomb-rares.'

There's a very obvious difference here between “pack with an abnormal distribution of product” and “pack with good/valuable, but normally distributed, product”. In addition, I don't believe the MTR supports pre-registering a top 8 draft at a typical event this way. See MTR 7.3.

April 29, 2014 06:52:23 AM

David Záleský
Judge (Uncertified)

Europe - Central

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

If a player receives an unconventional distribution of
rarities or frequencies in a particular booster pack or tournament pack, he or she must call a judge. The final
decision to replace or allow the atypical product is at the discretion of the Head Judge and the Tournament
Organizer.

These words from MTR tell me, that it is possible to force the player to replace the pantheon booster with another one. The player's only legal defense would be dropping “in response to TO's decision”, so he or she could keep the cards.

The customer service point of view is another matter and it would be probably good if the TO allows the player to keep the pantheon booster (but not use it) and give him another one for use in tournament (or possibly sell him one for that purpose), so the player would have an opportunity to keep the pantheon booster and to participate in tounament without compromising its integrity.

But the final decision is on TO and Head Judge.

April 29, 2014 09:14:25 AM

Andrew Heckt
Judge (Uncertified)

Italy and Malta

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

No, this rule does not permit the HJ or TO to force a player to do so. Pantheon packs are not unconventional - they are designed. Besides, as you note it is bad customer service. Instead, set expectation before product is distributed by messaging to all participants. Utilize diplomacy and reason to reinforce the expectation if you encounter a player still disagreeing.


Andy

________________________________
From: David Z?lesk? <forum-9745-05fa@apps.magicjudges.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 4:53 AM
To: Heckt, Andy
Subject: Re: “Gods pack” in GPT/PTQ (Competitive REL)


If a player receives an unconventional distribution of
rarities or frequencies in a particular booster pack or tournament pack, he or she must call a judge. The final
decision to replace or allow the atypical product is at the discretion of the Head Judge and the Tournament
Organizer.

These words from MTR tell me, that it is possible to force the player to replace the pantheon booster with another one. The player's only legal defense would be dropping “in response to TO's decision”, so he or she could keep the cards.

The customer service point of view is another matter and it would be probably good if the TO allows the player to keep the pantheon booster (but not use it) and give him another one for use in tournament (or possibly sell him one for that purpose), so the player would have an opportunity to keep the pantheon booster and to participate in tounament without compromising its integrity.

But the final decision is on TO and Head Judge.

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April 29, 2014 10:57:39 AM

Philip Ockelmann
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer, IJP Temporary Regional Advisor

German-speaking countries

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Well, argueably, a 15-god pack is stronger in sealed than a normal jou-one would be. So it'll actually be quite hard to convince a PTQ-player that he really wants to play with a JOU-Booster instead of a Pantheon-one once he knows that he can use the 15 gods. And it would be quite terrible customer-service to not tell him that he can use it, too.

If I imagine myself in the situation of beeing at a PTQ, there's no way that I would trade in my Pantheon for a normal JOU, even if I get to keep the 15 gods, unless the TO threatens me with expelling me from the venue…which is essentially forcing a player to switch the booster.
Also, if I opened a Pantheon booster not knowing that I can play it if I want to, and the judges or the TO pushes me to not using it (aka ‘using diplomacy and reason’), and then later find out that they cannot force me to, I'd be quite upset, and quite justified in that, in my opinion.
I feel like everything that is a middle ground here is terrible customer service. Either they get banned from competetive events, or we allow them at competetive events and do not attempt to mislead the players by clearly telling them/announcing ‘If you open a 15-God-Pack, you CAN play it (but, if you want a normal JOU-Booster instead, you can buy one from the TO/the TO gives you one free of charge/you can trade it in for a normal JOU-Booster. Note that the latest option is not really an option, if we are honest)’.

I feel that beeing asked to ‘set expectation before product is distributed by messaging to all participants’, which to me reads as ‘ask players to switch out product and do not tell them that they can play with it if they choose to do so’ is beeing asked to deceive players about the rules that we have in place.
And I personally will not do so.

EDIT: Let it be a Top8-Draft then. The point I'm trying to get across is the packs do warp the format, and even though they might come up rarely, when they do, the format changes quite radically for those involved.
I believe this is not a desired effect. But, by saying that the packs are allowed, Wizards says that it is. Going further down this line, even the offer to switch the packs out seems fishy. We do not allow players to swap out boosters unless they are different from how they are supposed to be. These are supposed to contain 15 mythics, and that is not unconventional. Hence why would we allow players to switch these, but not, say, Theros-boosters containing foil-elspeths? They probably are about as close in rarity as there are.
In my opinion:
If the Boosters are not considered unconventional, they should be treated as normal.
If the Boosters are considered unconventional, they should not be treated as normal.
There should be no choices involved, because choices depend on external circumstances and thereby lead to inconsistency. Yes, we have some inconsistencies in other places, too, because they usually involve he-said, she-said or had-to-be-there moments, but this clearly falls under neither of those categories. There really is no reason not to have a clear line how to handle this other than that ‘someone in charge of them’, who is somewhat represented by the judge present, chose not to have one.

I will follow the line, or lack thereof, presented here, I'm just saying that I won't sugar-coat the story - I will tell the TOs I work with that they can offer the players to switch the pack out, free of charge or not is their decision, or that they can choose not to offer a switch at all. I will tell players their choices, but won't put weight on either side, much less hold an option back. If asked why this is this way, the only thing I can tell them is that it is because ‘the people in charge said so’. And if asked what I would do/what the documents say, then I'd tell them that the boosters are considered normal, and, by the letter of the book, shouldn't be switched out.

Edited Philip Ockelmann (April 29, 2014 12:04:38 PM)

April 29, 2014 11:01:08 AM

Mark Mc Govern
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

I think it was mentioned already (and it's worth mentioning again) - Comp REL Sealed events tend to have deck reg and swap. The person who opens the 15 Gods will probably choose to take a new booster and register that, rather than register the Gods and pass them to somebody else.

April 29, 2014 02:40:28 PM

Alex Roebuck
Judge (Uncertified)

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Another key point to keep in mind: we can’t force a player to have their pack replaced if they do not wish it to be.

Can you explain why not?

Philip Körte
In my opinion:
If the Boosters are not considered unconventional, they should be treated as normal.
If the Boosters are considered unconventional, they should not be treated as normal.

I agree with Philip completely about this, which is why I'm having some trouble understanding some of your comments in this thread, Scott - you seem to advocate replacing the booster as the best option to offer but also as something the HJ&TO cannot enforce, which seems a bit like proposing an “option C” to a binary question.

If the boosters are considered normal product, as Andrew says they are, then MTR 7.4 doesn't apply at all and replacing the booster shouldn't even an option, never mind mandatory.
But if the boosters are considered unconventional, then MTR 7.4 does apply. Whilst that doesn't mean the HJ&TO have to choose to replace a booster it means they most certainly can choose to do so. So can you explain why we can't force a player to have their pack replaced? Not why we shouldn't - bad customer service is a simple enough answer - but why we can't.

Edited Alex Roebuck (April 29, 2014 02:42:41 PM)

April 29, 2014 02:59:18 PM

Andrew Heckt
Judge (Uncertified)

Italy and Malta

"Gods pack" in GPT/PTQ

We consider the best experience for everyone is for the player to keep the pantheon pack and have it replaced by a new one, except if required to do so by force.

Andy


From: Alex Roebuck
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:41 PM
To: Heckt, Andy
Subject: Re: “Gods pack” in GPT/PTQ (Competitive REL)

Scott Marshall
Another key point to keep in mind: we can’t force a player to have their pack replaced if they do not wish it to be.

Can you explain why not?
Philip Körte
In my opinion:
If the Boosters are not considered unconventional, they should be treated as normal.
If the Boosters are considered unconventional, they should not be treated as normal.

I agree with Philip completely about this, which is why I'm having some trouble understanding some of your comments in this thread, Scott.

If the boosters are considered normal product, then MTR 7.4 doesn't apply at all and replacing the booster is not even an option, never mind mandatory. If the boosters are considered unconventional, then MTR 7.4 does apply and whilst that doesn't mean the HJ&TO have to choose to replace a booster it means they most certainly can choose to do so. So can you explain why we can't force a player to have their pack replaced? Not why we shouldn't - bad customer service is a simple enough answer - but why we can't.

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