A while back I was judging at my first Competitive REL tournament. I was a Rules Advisor at the time. I witnessed only one error, and didn't do anything except apply a fix because I was so used to Regular REL. But it has never gone from my memory because of what I learned. Whenever I read the IPG I think of that singular experience.

The active player attacked with Sun Titan and pulled Liliana of the Veil out of the graveyard to the battlefield. While still in his declare attackers step, he activated Lilian's second loyalty ability to try and get rid of his opponent's lone blocker, and that's when I stepped in. I asked him to put the counters back on Liliana and finish the combat phase before activating loyalty abilities and asked them to play on.

This seems to have been a GPE-GRV and the active player should have received a Warning since his actions went against the Comp Rules, right? Since I had just witnessed it and no further actions had been taken (the opponent hadn't sacrificed his creature, nor had he declared blockers), backing up was very easy, but I didn't get permission from the Head Judge to do it. His opponent seemed to be new to competitive Magic, which I realize doesn't matter when it comes to applying penalties, but should he have been given a Warning for the same thing, since it was public?

On the part of penalizing the opp, how quickly did you step in. If you had stepped in before giving the opp a real chance to correct the mistake then you shouldn't punish him. It would be unfair to give him a penalty when he couldn't stop it.

If you believe he did have time to correct his opp and didn't, then that turns into GPE-Failure to maintain game state, for allowing his opp to do something wrong.

Edited Kyle Connelly (July 2, 2014 02:21:45 PM)

Originally posted by Roger Dunn:

This seems to have been a GPE-GRV and the active player should have received a Warning since his actions went against the Comp Rules, right?

That's right - the Active Player took an action that was against the rules, and which didn't fall into any other Game Play Error category.

Originally posted by Roger Dunn:

His opponent seemed to be new to competitive Magic, which I realize doesn't matter when it comes to applying penalties, but should he have been given a Warning for the same thing, since it was public?

If you hadn't stepped in, and had instead caught it later on, you'd issue the Non-Active Player a Warning for Failure to Maintain Game State. FtMGS is a reminder to the other player: “Hey, you're responsible for keeping the game on track too.” The Annotated IPG is a good place to learn more about FtMGS and the philosophy behind it. I wouldn't give FtMGS if I catch the error before the NAP has a chance to, and I wouldn't recommend waiting to see if NAP is going to stop AP - if you see a GRV, fix it and issue the penalty to the player committing it.

Edited John Brian McCarthy (July 2, 2014 02:26:37 PM)

This is honestly where I get confused about timing…

I see this as good customer service as you stepped in and kept the game going as it should and no penalties, no warnings, no nothing (I mean, yes we can say that was a Caution… but to a player, no adverse action was taken).

But from everything I've been told, while judging COMP REL, is that we dont step in unless called.

Let's start by closely reading the IPG, section 1, general philosophy:

Judges are neutral arbiters and enforcers of policy and rules. A judge shouldn’t intervene in a game unless he or she believes a rules violation has occurred, a player with a concern or question requests assistance, or the judge wishes to prevent a situation from escalating. Judges don’t stop play errors from occurring, but instead deal with errors that have occurred, penalize those who violate rules or policy, and promote fair play and sporting conduct by example and diplomacy. Judges may intervene to prevent or preempt errors occurring outside of a game.

So yes, we do step in if we witness an infraction. In this specifric example, a Game Rule Violation has occured, so we give the Active Player a Warning for GRV (because, after all, he did something against the rules and “The purpose of a penalty is to educate the player not to make similar mistakes in the future. This is done through both an explanation of where the rules or policies were violated and a penalty to reinforce the education. Penalties are also for the deterrence and education of every other player in the event and are also used to track player behavior over time.”

The only thing that depends on timing is whether we give the Non-Active Player a Warning for FtMGS (did he get a fair chance to notice the error?) and in the fix we apply (we only rewind if we fairly quickly catch the error and can rewind without causing bigger problems than we try to solve).

But please, do step in if you spot an error, and penalize the player who committed the infraction!

The key point at Comp REL and higher is that while we wont intercede to
prevent play errors we will intercede on our own once a rule has been
broken. If a player casts a spell for the wrong amount of mana with you
standing there the expectation is that you step in and deliver any
penalties associated with the infraction and apply any fixes that are
applicable. This does a couple of things.

1) It makes sure that any errors dont' snowball into larger problems down
the road. I mean how many times have we been called and said to the players
“I could have done more if I had been called back when the error happened”
2) it provides the outwards presentation that we are concerned with keeping
the game state legal and fair for all players. We don't want to let a
player get a FtMGS warning simply because we were waiting to see if they
were going to notice the error.

What it comes down to in the end is that we as judges are there to make
sure that the game stays fun for everyone and that the rules are followed.
In those interests it is best for us to intercede in situations of errors
that we are aware of, as soon as we are able to do so.

In this specific situation, well over a year ago I think, I believe the NAP did have some time to spot the error. I remember him looking at his Hand, rubbing his chin. Perhaps he was wondering whether or not to flash in a creature in response to Liliana's required sacrifice. IF (and that's a big if) I remember correctly, I waited for about 5 seconds (1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, … ) to let the Active and Non-active players realize a mistake had been made and neither caught it.

I did not realize that the opponent would get Failure to Maintain Game State, but that sure falls into the first paragraph about that violation!

Thank you, everyone, for your responses!

I personally apply similar philosophy for FtMGS as for missed triggers,
i.e. if the non-GRV player took an action after opponent's error without
pointing out that error or explicitly confirmed the illegal action or other
player's following actions, he is getting FtMGS (or, if done intentionally,
a DQ).

Waiting (no matter if 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 10 hours) does not
constitute a FtMGS (even though the last one might possibly constitute a
Slow Play :) ) and I certainly would not waited with my intervention just
to find out how much time will it take to NAP to point it out, unless I
strongly suspected him of not pointing it out on purpose.